What attributes of god or the belief in god set it apart from the childish belief in santa claus?
The Religion subforum.
- Thread starter Jaster Mereel
- Start date
Oh really? Case closed then, it could possibly be as childish as sant given that.leopold99 said:
It's obvious there is nothing that seperates the two.
Look, I'll put up a simple analogy in order to more readily illustrate my point.
There's a message board (fictional as far as I know, but there probably is one like it) called Religionforums. Most of the subforums on the board deal exclusively with religious topics, but it has a couple of science subforums for those members who enjoy dicussing science. You like talking about religion because you are interested in the topic, but you are an atheist, and so from time to time you poke into the science subforums in order to listen to some discussion on, let's say, evolution (since it's a suitably volatile and controversial subject, especially in that type of community). However, every time a person who gives credence to the theory of evolution (who are outnumbered at around 2 to 1 on Religionforums) begins a thread on the subject, half a dozen bible-belt christians pop in and basically say "There's no reason to talk about evolution since it's wrong". What use is there for this particular subforum if you can never discuss evolution just because the majority of the people on the board don't believe in it, and furthermore they are nosy and obnoxious enough to go out of their way to ridicule your "ridiculous belief"?
Forget the position that most of you have about evolution being more credible from a scientific standpoint than religious beliefs, because that's not my point. I agree with you, actually. The point is, from an administrative standpoint, such ridicule amounts to nothing more than trolling, the difference being that it comes from the majority of the people on the board and the majority of the moderators share the position of the trollers. If it's going to be impossible for anyone to discuss religion from the standpoint of religion, then there is no point in having the Religion subforum.
There's a message board (fictional as far as I know, but there probably is one like it) called Religionforums. Most of the subforums on the board deal exclusively with religious topics, but it has a couple of science subforums for those members who enjoy dicussing science. You like talking about religion because you are interested in the topic, but you are an atheist, and so from time to time you poke into the science subforums in order to listen to some discussion on, let's say, evolution (since it's a suitably volatile and controversial subject, especially in that type of community). However, every time a person who gives credence to the theory of evolution (who are outnumbered at around 2 to 1 on Religionforums) begins a thread on the subject, half a dozen bible-belt christians pop in and basically say "There's no reason to talk about evolution since it's wrong". What use is there for this particular subforum if you can never discuss evolution just because the majority of the people on the board don't believe in it, and furthermore they are nosy and obnoxious enough to go out of their way to ridicule your "ridiculous belief"?
Forget the position that most of you have about evolution being more credible from a scientific standpoint than religious beliefs, because that's not my point. I agree with you, actually. The point is, from an administrative standpoint, such ridicule amounts to nothing more than trolling, the difference being that it comes from the majority of the people on the board and the majority of the moderators share the position of the trollers. If it's going to be impossible for anyone to discuss religion from the standpoint of religion, then there is no point in having the Religion subforum.
i beleive 'santa' gives out gifts when he comes around.imaplanck. said:Oh really? Case closed then, it could possibly be as childish as sant given that.
It's obvious there is nothing that seperates the two.
if he didn't the popularity would fall through the floor.
in the movie "gremlins", pheobe cates' character gives an account of her father dying in the chimney trying to be santa for her as a child.....samcdkey said:Nobody ever died for Santa Claus
(disclaimer: Not that I know of, at least)
thats all ive got.
Woody,
Why do I do this? Stupidity probably, but really the irrationality and absurdity of religion is such easy pickings for anyone with even a modest ability at logical reasoning. My background was science but science is hard work. Religion on the other hand is so easy to refute that it is really effortless, like playing solitaire. I guess I'm really quite lazy and don't want too much of a challenge.
On a more serious note; religion has infused itself into nearly all aspects of human culture, especially in the USA, and does affect my life. That such irrational influences can be allowed to survive is not acceptable. I reserve the right to defend myself and the best way to do that is to speak up and oppose whenever possible in support of my own way of life.
In addition to playing here I am also a member of American Atheists, Institute for Humanist Studies, part of the Brights network, a strong supporter of the Secular Coalition of America, and a number of other organizations operating to oppose the danger of religious idiocy.
I am registered at several religion forums and delve into those occasionally. Back in the UK some 12 years ago I attended every Sunday morning a Christian debate group where I was definitely the sole atheist and I was beaten-up there on a regular basis.
Why do I do this? Stupidity probably, but really the irrationality and absurdity of religion is such easy pickings for anyone with even a modest ability at logical reasoning. My background was science but science is hard work. Religion on the other hand is so easy to refute that it is really effortless, like playing solitaire. I guess I'm really quite lazy and don't want too much of a challenge.
On a more serious note; religion has infused itself into nearly all aspects of human culture, especially in the USA, and does affect my life. That such irrational influences can be allowed to survive is not acceptable. I reserve the right to defend myself and the best way to do that is to speak up and oppose whenever possible in support of my own way of life.
In addition to playing here I am also a member of American Atheists, Institute for Humanist Studies, part of the Brights network, a strong supporter of the Secular Coalition of America, and a number of other organizations operating to oppose the danger of religious idiocy.
leopold99 said:
From what I have seen, it's probably because he thinks that people are inherently stupid and believe whatever they are told. Or, it could be that he believes that people before our own time were stupid and/or "unevolved" (completely ignoring what evolution means), and that old habits have a tendency to die slowly. Or, it could be a combination of both. It's a fairly prevalent attitude.
Cris, correct me if I'm wrong and you have a more complicated explanation. I really was serious, so don't take offence.
Cris said:
Aren't you an electrical engineer?
Did any of them follow you out of the room?
This atheistic argument you have that says "all christians are stupid" sounds like something an ignorant person would say. How do you like my picture of Isaac Newton:
This man, having been a christian fanatic, did not have even have a " modest ability at logical reasoning" according to our sciforums religion moderator.
The absurdity is hilarious. At least I go out of here laughing. LOL.
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I find it interesting, Woody, that you and I agree on this subject and for the same reason. I am an atheist in that I do not have a god or any sort of religion, and for the most part I do not deal with religion in the sense of the supernatural because I do not believe that there is a supernatural. In most instances, when it comes to religion, I think that you and I would disagree.
It's rather annoying that I end up defending theists on this board (I know I don't have to, but my sense of justice compels me to jump in when I feel that someone is being treated unfairly), when I don't actually agree with their position, and never will. And this is my point. I don't care about what you think as to the validity/factuality/truth/rationality/logic of a person's belief, only that they are treated fairly and with a fair amount of respect, and especially when it comes to Religion. I know that the lot of you will retort with "should we give people who believe in UFOs or ESP any respect? should we treat their beliefs as if they rest on solid ground?", but that really doesn't apply to Religion for the simple fact that it doesn't deal with things that can be easily disected through critical reasoning, or through empirical observation. It's been said numerous times by me, and by others on this board, that the experience of religion is subjective and personal and that it cannot be studied with the scientific method. The reason for this is simple; no experience is exactly the same between two people, and no experience repeats with absolute fidelity even from the perspective of the same individual. But this is irrelevant. I don't give a damn that people believe something I don't, because I understand that they believe it not because they are sheep, or because they are stupid, but because faith really is a personal thing. It's subjective, and you can't study it except by listening to what people say about their experiences. I understand that, and I go into every discussion with a religious person knowing that their foundational axiom is that there is a god, or some other kind of meaningful purpose or structure to existence.
It's rather annoying that I end up defending theists on this board (I know I don't have to, but my sense of justice compels me to jump in when I feel that someone is being treated unfairly), when I don't actually agree with their position, and never will. And this is my point. I don't care about what you think as to the validity/factuality/truth/rationality/logic of a person's belief, only that they are treated fairly and with a fair amount of respect, and especially when it comes to Religion. I know that the lot of you will retort with "should we give people who believe in UFOs or ESP any respect? should we treat their beliefs as if they rest on solid ground?", but that really doesn't apply to Religion for the simple fact that it doesn't deal with things that can be easily disected through critical reasoning, or through empirical observation. It's been said numerous times by me, and by others on this board, that the experience of religion is subjective and personal and that it cannot be studied with the scientific method. The reason for this is simple; no experience is exactly the same between two people, and no experience repeats with absolute fidelity even from the perspective of the same individual. But this is irrelevant. I don't give a damn that people believe something I don't, because I understand that they believe it not because they are sheep, or because they are stupid, but because faith really is a personal thing. It's subjective, and you can't study it except by listening to what people say about their experiences. I understand that, and I go into every discussion with a religious person knowing that their foundational axiom is that there is a god, or some other kind of meaningful purpose or structure to existence.
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Jaster Mereel said:
Fortunately there are a few atheists on the forum that think the same way you do.
As one person told me on the ex-gay forum I'm now involved in: It's not what someone says about you that tells who you are, it's what you respond to. I see little in the religion forum that's worthy of a response -- very little. I don't even look anymore.
Currently, I'm on the ex-gay forum as a straight person that wants to understand the gay/ ex-gay issues. It's probably the most divisive issue in the history of the protestant church. I don't want to be left out, and I really do want to understand this issue.
What a silly answer. Sillyness will not be tolerated. Especially on such a non-silly topic as religion.samcdkey said:Nobody ever died for Santa Claus
(disclaimer: Not that I know of, at least)
Bully for you.Jaster Mereel said:
Frankly, bullshit. Religion deserves no more or less respect than any other area of human activity.
This is clearly not true. Why would anyone say such a wildly off the mark thing?
And UFO and ESP experiences are not? Visions of angels, or "good" feelings and messages from god are qualitatively and quantitatively different from any other experience how?
So? This applies to ALL subjective phenomena. Religious people do not claim their god is subjective. God is a real manifestation in the cosmos to them and therefore open to any and all analysis, debate, and criticism that any claimed "real" phenomenon should expect.
So, you're interested only in the psychological phenomenon called "religion" and never discuss the basis in reality for this "belief"?
I go into every discussion with a UFO or ESP "enthusiast" knowing that their foundational axiom is that there are aliens visiting earth or that they really can magically levitate objects.
You seem to be like some kind of half-assed theist-atheist diplomat. Unfortunately, you are being disingenuous to both sides. You don't give a shred of credibility to religion or the supernatural, yet you will convey respect for their ideas in a discussion? Malarky. Respect for a person is sometimes seperate from respect for their ideas, but not often. Unless you have a close theist friend whom with you wish to maintain a relationship, your respect "especially for religion" is a transparent facade designed only to make you feel better.
All just my subjective opinion of course, which you will treat with the utmost respect, no doubt.
So you respect these atheists and just wish them well? Bull woodster. All atheists are damned to hell and you just hope you can save a few of us pathetic souls. Or it sounds like you've given up.Woody said:
Quite understandable.
Why? You already know the results of any debate regarding this. What's to understand? Homosexuality is unnatural and a mortal sin. End of story. Where's the debate?