How is the concept of god not a conceptualization of a higher being? Those two offer no significant or useable differentiation. It seems you have avoided the question with trivial semantics. So I will repeat:
Read it again:
The ability to conceptualize. You're attempting to say that God as a concept has been selected naturally; I'm saying that our intelligence has been selected, and that intelligence has created God as a byproduct, much is the same way it has created cinema or music.
Read it again? Sure. You said:
"The ability to conceptualize a higher being obviously evolved"
Unless you can prove otherwise, there is no other value to that specific
"ability to conceptualize a higher being" other than the concept it facilitates. But if you misspoke earlier, just admit it. Here it seems you want to make a much more general, and vague/digressing, argument about intelligence, where earlier you seemed happy to argue the point directly...at least until it seemed to be failing you.
By extension, I guess you would also say that there is no value in "cinema or music" that promotes its persistent? Remember, I asked about its persistence, not its creation.
Why is it almost every other persisting biological and social trait is attributed to evolution but not the conceptualization of ability to conceptualize a higher being?
But I will happily agree that the "ability to conceptualize a higher being" has evolutionary value. After all, the concept of god is incomprehensible without the ability to conceptualize it.
Obviously, but you're not agreeing to what you
think you're agreeing to.
Well? Are you satisfied to agree on that or not? I know what I am agreeing to, do you?
Why has the ability to conceptualize God persisted? Because the main functions of the mechanisms behind it have actual value. You're trying to say that the concept of God itself has value; this is incorrect.
What, the mechanism of the
ability to conceptualize a higher being which you have yet to show has any other value than facilitating the concept itself? In evolution, abilities develop in direct response to specific pressures, and are thus goal/result driven. Even if the initial ability is a random mutation, it does not generally persist (and definitely not at the magnitude of this concept) without environmental reinforcement.
Pointless nitpick. Whether your claim is that things are only wrong if you are caught, or that people will believe it to be true in the absence of a God concept, it amounts to the same thing. And it's wrong, to boot.
Again, I have asserted neither, so your objection is only an invented strawman (whether by your misunderstanding or intention). I said: "A postulated view that does not have the shortcoming inherent in all other human institutions that lead people to believe that something is only wrong if you get caught."
I did not address morality in general, but only its relation to human institutions (which necessarily includes the institutions of church, BTW).
But since you brought it up, perhaps you would like to give some examples of human institutions that do not rely heavily on social interaction to establish/maintain morality.
That's not what I said,
nor was it your claim. Morality and ethics are human institutions that operate independently of one's anonymity. We are taught that stealing is bad not because we could go to jail for it, but because, among other things,
the negative impact it has on the victim. This same rationale applies, in various forms, across the board.
Finally, you admit that you were wrong when you said:
You make this claim based on the fallacy that all other human institutions only work when someone is watching.
What you are talking about is empathy, which I have repeatedly told you cannot fully develop independent of social interaction. How else would you be aware of any "negative impact it has on the victim"?
I have, not once, asserted anything about anonymity. Seems you keep conflating the existence with the development of conscience. I have been solely talking about the former.
Who are you quoting there? It is definitely not me, not even "suggested". You keep doggedly missing that I have been talking about developing conscience, not utilizing it (I even specified in the OP "exercise (work to strengthen)").
Except where you
were talking about utilizing it:
Syne said:
Obviously, our empathy for others can curtail behavior when in the presence of those others (knowing they will be aware of our misdeeds), but in perceived isolation only conscience suffices.
So...yeah.
And I have repeatedly told you that conscience and empathy (which necessarily requires social interaction to develop) are not synonymous. So?
It's related because you're using terms interchangeably. For instance, I said that ethics and morality do not require a witness. You then replied by saying that morality isn't synonymous with conscience, and then claiming that I had said conscience required a witness. You continually argue that these are separate, non-overlapping terms, but continually hot-swap one for the other.
I never said they were "non-overlapping terms", as it is trivially obvious that conscience informs both morality and empathy. The only "hot-swapping" has been your own. You
did claim that conscience required a witness
because you insisted on not differentiating the terms.
An honest conversation requires that at least one party try to communicate in language the other understands. You seem to have a problem understanding "conscience", but I have consistently distinguished it as separate from empathy (which requires some social interaction).
Where does that say anything about empathy requiring learned behavior? In fact, it says the opposite, right there in your quote. Empathy is innate.
I give you the links to anything I cite for a reason, but I really expected you were capable of understanding statements such as "most children do not show a fully fledged theory of mind until around the age of four." That literally means that it is developing, but following the link in that quote:
The study of which animals are capable of attributing knowledge and mental states to others, as well as when in human ontogeny and phylogeny this ability developed, has identified a number of precursory behaviors to a theory of mind. Understanding attention, understanding of others' intentions, and imitative experience with other people are hallmarks of a theory of mind that may be observed early in the development of what later becomes a full-fledged theory. -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind#Development
"Understanding attention, understanding of others' intentions, and imitative experience" are all things that must be learned.
So I have provided you with ample citations about empathy not being 100% innate. Where are your counter-citations? Do you have anything to support your proclamation/bare assertion that "empathy is innate"?
Your hostile interactions with just about everyone you're conversing with in this thread is proof. Should I quote all of the unprovoked dickishness you've displayed here, or can you just drop the act?
This is a debate, and nothing I have said in this thread is
objectively hostile. Or do you claim some erroneous, psychic insight?
Quote away. You will find that where I have hit the nail on the head others have responded by assuming hostility that was not there (poisoning the well), and when pressed begged off.
It is shockingly simple. If psychopaths live in society then society may not be a good way to develop conscience.
I guess I didn't come to that conclusion because it's so stupid. I mean, I even
tried to imagine a couple of stupid notions that you might be suggesting, but they paled in comparison to the outrageously idiotic one you settled on.
How is it that the existence of psychopathy (a mental disorder) affects the ability of society to develop conscience?
Who is sounding hostile now?
Society develops conscience? I thought you said conscience was innate? (And before you get pedantic about "hot-swapping" again, it is trivial that if conscience informs empathy and
you assume empathy is innate, so must conscience be.)
Ah, so physiological defect, huh?
A study by Farrington of a sample of London males followed between age 8 and 48 included studying which factors predicted scoring 10 or more on the PCL[Psychopathy Checklist]: SV at age 48. The strongest factors were "having a convicted father or mother, physical neglect of the boy, low involvement of the father with the boy, low family income, and coming from a disrupted family." Other significant factors included poor supervision, harsh discipline, large family size, delinquent sibling, young mother, depressed mother, low social class, and poor housing. -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Environmental
Here is an idea. Why not try to support your views with anything other than bare assertion?