The Relativity of Simultaneity

James, I appreciate your long responses. I think we're just repeating the same points that we've already discussed at length so I want to move away from those points and on to some different points and an example of a train in motion and an embankment in motion in the MD universe. I want to compare the two worlds using a train and an embankment that each have motion, so that it can't be said one or the other is in motion and the other is at rest, and vise versa.

I will make the scenario with pic, and provide all the times and calculations according to my world. You can then look at the scenario and tell me what your numbers are.

Also, you mentioned that you didn't see the acceleration calculation I performed in my world. Well, here is what I posted days ago. Do you notice that my world loves to incorporate acceleration in it, and everything matches up nice and pretty? Not one little hiccup! You know why Einstein's SR doesn't do acceleration? Because the numbers don't add up, because his world is actually wrong, you just don't want to admit it.

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There is no saying that it can be said that the source is stationary and the light sphere is traveling away, as Einstein would say. That is not possible. The source is in motion, the light sphere is not, other than expanding its radius from the point of emission at the rate of c.

Galilei is turning in his grave.
 
The Cult of Tentativeness

I declare the existence of a cult consisting of science professionals and laymen alike who adhere to the precept of tentativeness of science. In that cult are those who do not consider non-falsification of SR to equate to proof that SR is reality. If that describes you, you are a cult member in the Cult of Tentativeness.

In the case of the science of Special Relativity you have to declare yourself a non-cult member in order to be excluded from the cult. You can do that in several ways. You can deny being a cult member or simply insist that non-falsification of SR is proof of SR. That releases you from the cult and gives you non-cult status meaning you don’t accept the tentativeness of SR Theory.

You can also declare yourself a non-cult member by proclaiming that only cranks and crackpots say the SR is theory and not fact. That releases you from the cult.

Also, you can exclude yourself from the cult by flaming declared cult members for not accepting non-cult member status through denial of the precept of tentativeness or through acceptance of non-falsification of SR as proof that SR is reality.

Strangely enough that puts some reputable science professionals in the same group as professed cult members in the eyes of declared non-cult members because some science professionals acknowledge that one of the strengths of science is tentativeness, i.e. all science is subject to change and new facts are always possible that can lead to falsification of a previously held consensus. Science professionals who hold to tentativeness are undeclared cult members and do not have non-cult status until they declare non-cult status.

Many cult members, declared or undeclared, believe that SR is derived from the postulates, is mathematically sound based on the postulates, and it has not been falsified, but that it is not yet truth because of the precept of tentativeness in science or because they believe that the postulates themselves do not correspond with reality, i.e. Lorentz invariance does not equate to realty just because it has not yet been falsified.

I am a cult member because I believe in the tentativeness of science.

Man up and declare your status.
 
Gravity is tentative, does that mean scientists should always talk about it as if they're not really sure it exists? Not only has Lorentz invariance never been disproven, it has mathematical consequences which correctly describe nature, and we'd have to simply guess at these consequences without any unifying logic if we tried to deduce them by other means. So yeah I guess you could say I'm in the cult of people who think Lorentz invariance is "tentative", insofar as I'm willing to accept that the existence of rain is also "tentative".

Maybe indeed Lorentz invariance breaks down somewhere in nature. That somewhere would not be in quantum mechanics as we presently understand it, nor in any experiment conducted to date.
 
Do length contraction and time dilation occur in Motor Daddy's universe?

Because if not he really has taken a giant leap back to the pre-Lorentz ether theory days. And in that case I've never seen such a blank denial of relativity.

Has he even tried to explain the results of Michelson-Morley experiments, beyond just complaining that they're only sensitive to round trip times?

No, in MD's universe there is no Lorentz transformation. Both he and QW deny it exists, despite having been linked to experimental confirmations.
 
I declare the existence of a cult consisting of science professionals and laymen alike who adhere to the precept of tentativeness of science. In that cult are those who do not consider non-falsification of SR to equate to proof that SR is reality. If that describes you, you are a cult member in the Cult of Tentativeness.
You're inventing a dichotomy where none exists. By your definition, everyone who has posted in this thread, as well as every physicist and most laymen are in your "cult".

You can deny being a cult member or simply insist that non-falsification of SR is proof of SR.
Nobody says this. The actual situation with SR is as I described it in the PM I sent you: SR asserts that all the laws of physics are Lorentz invariant, and all the most accurate physical laws that we know about are Lorentz invariant. So a century after it was first formulated, SR is a fact about all the physics we know about, and at the very worst an excellent approximation of reality. It's been confirmed well enough that the old ideas of absolute space and time are certainly gone forever.

An important point is that no matter what we discover in the future, SR already has demonstrated uses and can never turn out to be less useful than it has already shown itself to be. People working with GPS or designing the sort of accelerators that are being used for their medical applications are always going to need to know SR to do their jobs. So while there is always the possibility we might discover Lorentz violations at some insanely high energy scale, it's never going to turn out to be so wrong that the anti-relativity crowd will have any good reason to cheer about it.
 
You're inventing a dichotomy where none exists. By your definition, everyone who has posted in this thread, as well as every physicist and most laymen are in your "cult".


Nobody says this. The actual situation with SR is as I described it in the PM I sent you: SR asserts that all the laws of physics are Lorentz invariant, and all the most accurate physical laws that we know about are Lorentz invariant. So a century after it was first formulated, SR is a fact about all the physics we know about, and at the very worst an excellent approximation of reality. It's been confirmed well enough that the old ideas of absolute space and time are certainly gone forever.

An important point is that no matter what we discover in the future, SR already has demonstrated uses and can never turn out to be less useful than it has already shown itself to be. People working with GPS or designing the sort of accelerators that are being used for their medical applications are always going to need to know SR to do their jobs. So while there is always the possibility we might discover Lorentz violations at some insanely high energy scale, it's never going to turn out to be so wrong that the anti-relativity crowd will have any good reason to cheer about it.
This is almost a strong enough acknowledgement of tentativeness to keep you in the cult but I’m not sure you really want to be, lol. Maybe you want to be a fence sitter.

But you are wrong if you think that almost everyone posting here is in the cult. I conclude that you are saying that more from the position that everyone here will acknowledge tentativeness at some level, but you see, the cult members do not flame each other in order to shut them up or in order to stroke their own egos. They try to teach each other and when they have gone as far as they have the inclination to go with teaching they just exit, they don’t ad hom and exit claiming evidence they have falsifies the premise of the thread without doing the teaching that is necessary.

I’m not objecting to flaming, I’m saying that flamers cannot be held in respect by cult members. That isn’t a very monumental statement because who cares if they are in the cult. Most here would rather not be in it. Being excluded makes them happy as I’m sure you agree, and it gives them one more opportunity to flame us.

Cult members stick together and either respond patiently, don’t acknowledge the flamers, or do not let flaming go by without returning the flaming in-kind. If you allow flaming to go by without comment you are not a proclaimed cult member even if you hold tentativeness as one of the strengths of science. You may still be an unproclaimed cult member if you want to be. If you condone unprofessional behavior from professionals and you let the non-professional flamers stroke their own egos and go unchallenged when you have every opportunity to take a stand for the cult, you are not in the cult. Be happy, right?

As for your presentation, no one in the cult is saying SR has not been useful or that characteristics of relativity will not be part of any new consensus should there ever be one. If anyone, including MD claim that, they are not in the cult, lol.

Also, “insanely high energy scales” only need to be “relativistic” enough to prove differences between SR and reality and if that were to occur, your characterization of it being “insanely” relativistic would be an overstatement if not wrong. Making statements like that implies to me that you do not accept the strength of tentativeness or do not accept that it endures even in the face of the strong consensus theory over lengthy durations.

Our expanding universe is finite and the Hubble volume of space that contains it is causally connected to the Big Bang. Everything in that arena tests positive for Lorentz invariance as far as we know. I’ll give you that, and expect if you are in the cult you will give me leeway as to what lies at the heart of particles within that Hubble volume of space as well as what might lie beyond the Hubble volume of space, i.e. preconditions to the Big Bang.

I don’t agree that I’m “inventing” a dichotomy where none exists. I’m saying that science is tentative and that tentativeness is one of the strengths of science. I think science professionals conduct themselves professionally and though flaming between professionals is good sport and well understood, professionals flaming laymen is not done in the spirit of peer camaraderie, it is done with disdain.

You may say that the fact that there are degrees of tentativeness allows you to sit on the fence and all I’m saying is that fence sitters are not cult members.
 
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Motor Daddy has blissful arrogance.

I mean, look at his post above--still pushing the same cart. He hasn't taken anything on board, so as far as he's concerned nobody has said anything yet.

What I want to know is, will this thread get to be the biggest, and is there a prize? I want to attend the ceremony, if possible.
 
MD I have a couple of questions based on some of your hypothesis. Forgive me if these questions have been asked, I am losing track of all of the posts.

1. Keeping in mind that the earth is revolving at about 1,700 km/h at the equator and the earth is orbiting the sun at about 110,000 km/h, what do you expect the relative speed of light to be when measured by device on the surface of the earth?

2. Science says that the astronauts on the space station are weightless because they are in freefall. In other words they are continually accelerating towards the earth, however they are also in a (relatively) stable orbit. That means that the orbital speed of the space station is constant. What is your take on this? Is it possible to experience acceleration while moving at a constant speed?

I am not tryiing to convince you of anything - I have realized that is fruitless - I am simply asking what your thoughts are on these questions, based on your ideas.
 
James, Here is the embankment and train scenario with both the embankment and train in motion. The diagrams may not be to exact scale. Please give me your numbers of this scenario.

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But you are wrong if you think that almost everyone posting here is in the cult. I conclude that you are saying that more from the position that everyone here will acknowledge tentativeness at some level, but you see, the cult members do not flame each other in order to shut them up or in order to stroke their own egos.
Flaming has absolutely nothing to do with your definition of your "cult". Why don't you just define your cult as "people who don't flame"? Wouldn't that be more honest than pretending it has something to do with tentativeness in science?

Yes, relativity, like all of physics, is tentative to some extent. You can still annoy people who understand it by attacking it for the wrong reasons though. I don't know about you, but Motor Daddy certainly deserves all the flaming he's getting: in an exchange that lasted only a handful of posts here I saw him misrepresent what Tach said, misrepresent things I'd said, repeatedly post strawman attacks against relativity, and play deaf when he was corrected. The guy has absolutely no interest in making any effort to understand the theory that he is objecting to. He simply maintains that relativity *must* be wrong, basically because he says so. Multiply that up to 1400 posts and it is not difficult to see why some posters have reached the end of their fuses with him.

Also, “insanely high energy scales” only need to be “relativistic” enough to prove differences between SR and reality and if that were to occur, your characterization of it being “insanely” relativistic would be an overstatement if not wrong.
No. Saying "insane" might be an exaggeration, but not by far. Currently our best shot of observing a Lorentz violation is an accelerator on the French-Swiss border that cost billions and accelerates protons to 99.999999% the speed of light. As a rule of thumb, usually anything above about 10% the speed of light is considered relativistic.
 
Here is the embankment and train scenario with both the embankment and train in motion.


Motor Daddy,

I'm glad to see you've set the embankment in motion. After all, the earth is certainly not at absolute rest! I see that you have chosen the absolute speed of the embankment to be 9368514 meters per second. That is as good a guess as any, I suppose.

According to your diagrams, if the light could travel for a full second, the light would travel this far along the embankment in one direction:
299,792,458 - 9,368,514 = 290,423,944 meters

and, if the light could travel for a full second, the light would travel this far along the embankment in the other direction:
299,792,458 + 9,368,514 = 309,160,972 meters


Now, all you have to do is explain why light always travels at 299,792,458 meters per second relative to the surface of the earth. Why don't we ever find light traveling at some other speed, such as 290,423,944 meter per second, or 309,160,972 meters per second?

Do you understand that your theory's inability to explain the above question renders your theory practically useless?
 
Now, all you have to do is explain why light always travels at 299,792,458 meters per second relative to the surface of the earth. Why don't we ever find light traveling at some other speed, such as 290,423,944 meter per second, or 309,160,972 meters per second?

Do you understand that your theory's inability to explain the above question renders your theory practically useless?

If the earth is in motion, and you measure the speed of light on earth to be 299,792,458 m/s, you have not measured the length properly. Do you understand that if a stick is in motion, and light takes 1/299,792,458 of a second to travel the length of the stick, the stick is NOT 1 meter.

The same applies on earth. If you measure light to travel 1/299,792,458 of a second from point a to point b on earth, that distance is NOT 1 meter.

How many times do I need to explain that to you, Ned?
 
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