The Relativity of Simultaneity

Dear Motor Daddy,

Let's say that you are looking out the window of your home. You see a lightning strike to your left about 100 meters away. Then, a little while later, you see another lightning strike to your right, also about 100 meters away.

Would you say that the lightning strikes were simultaneous or not?

I tend to think you would say that they were not simultaneous. However, according to your own anti-relativity theory, you would never know whether they were simultaneous or not. The reason you'd never know is because you don't know the absolute speed of the earth, or the sun, or the galaxy. Without knowing those absolute speeds, you would have no way of performing those calculations you like to do.

Dear Neddy Bate,

According to your logic, if you don't know something, you should ignore it. If you don't have accurate measurements abandon all hope and throw your logic away. Good advice dude. I'll have to remember that. ;)
 
Dear Neddy Bate,

According to your logic, if you don't know something, you should ignore it. If you don't have accurate measurements abandon all hope and throw your logic away. Good advice dude. I'll have to remember that. ;)


Or you could consider a more useful approach, such as Einstein's theory of relativity. Using that theory, you could conclude that the strikes outside your window were not simultaneous, according to your reference frame. The reason you could make that conclusion is because the two strikes were both the same distance away from you, and yet the light from the two strikes did not reach you simultaneously.

The above reasoning follows from Einstein's second postulate which states that the speed of light is a constant, in your own reference frame. This applies to any reference frame, provided the laws of physics hold good in that frame. No need to worry about absolute speeds! Neat huh?
 
Or you could consider a more useful approach, such as Einstein's theory of relativity. Using that theory, you could conclude that the strikes outside your window were not simultaneous, according to your reference frame. The reason you could make that conclusion is because the two strikes were both the same distance away from you, and yet the light from the two strikes did not reach you simultaneously.

The above reasoning follows from Einstein's second postulate which states that the speed of light is a constant, in your own reference frame. This applies to any reference frame, provided the laws of physics hold good in that frame. No need to worry about absolute speeds! Neat huh?

So you are of the camp that the light is 300,000 km in front of the train after 1 second? That's funny stuff right there. You're on the train and assume a zero velocity, and that the light is 300,000 km in front of you after 1 second, in your own little world, and everyone outside the train in my world can see how foolish that is. Carry on with your fairytale, by all means. In the end it's what makes you happy, right?
 
So you are of the camp that the light is 300,000 km in front of the train after 1 second? That's funny stuff right there. You're on the train and assume a zero velocity, and that the light is 300,000 km in front of you after 1 second, in your own little world, and everyone outside the train in my world can see how foolish that is.

Well you are correct that the people on the embankment must see the light as only 150,000 km in front of the train after one second, if the train is moving at 150,000 km/sec. I know that sounds like it contradicts the idea that, according to the people on the train, the light is 300,000 km in front of the train after 1 second.

But relativity theory has an answer for that. The clocks and measuring sticks are not the same across both frames. When you apply all of the different aspects of the theory, it does not contradict itself. I think that is where Pete is going with his exercise. That's why he wants you to allow him to use length-contracted measuring sticks, and time-dilated clocks on the train.


Carry on with your fairytale, by all means. In the end it's what makes you happy, right?

No, I think it has more to do with using what works best. You have basically admitted that your theory cannot work, even if it were correct, because no absolute speeds are known. With relativity, you can work out all sorts of things without ever knowing any absolute speeds. It's useful, if nothing else.
 
Are you saying the train observer can use the embankment's clocks to compare to?
No, I said you can.
By the way, when you say a clock runs slow, you really mean that another clock is the standard, and the "slow" clock is substandard.
Yes. What other meaning could there be?

And in this exercise, a consequence of assuming the embankment to be absolutely at rest is that we conclude that the embankment clocks are absolutely standard and all moving clocks are substandard, unless their rate is explicitly adjusted to compensate.

An embankment clock ticks once a second, It's a perfect standard clock.
A train clock ticks once every 1.0000000001367545 seconds. It's not quite accurate, because it is moving.
 
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Motor Daddy said:
...everyone outside the train in my world can see how foolish that is.
Some might say that it takes a wise person to know a wise person. :cool:

Ready for the next step, in which the train observer makes his first measurement of the train's velocity?
 
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So you say the light traveled at 1.5 c from a zero velocity line on the tracks? The train traveled at .5c for 1 second. The front of the train is ~150,000 km from the line after exactly 1 second of travel. You say the light is 300,000 km in front of the train after 1 second of travel. That means the light is 450,000 km from the line after 1 second of travel. So you are saying the light traveled 1.5c for 1 second. Is that your story?

Put the light on the tracks at the line, and when the front of the train coincides with the line and light, the light is emitted. It's the same thing, the light is 300,000 km from the line, and the train is 150,000 km from the line after 1 second of travel. The light is 150,000 km in front of the train. You say the light traveled 450,000 km/s. Prove it!

I did not say anything about how far the light had traveled relative to a line on the tracks - that would involve the discussion of special relativity which you don't believe. I only said that the speed of light is always measured as c relative to the observer regardless of the observers velocity, so yes the light would move away from the train at 300,000 km/sec. You say otherwise.

Prove it. OK. Lets start with this one.

What is your evidence that the relative speed of light changes with the speed of the source? No math needed. No scenarios needed, just produce some evidence that the relative speed of light in a vacuum is anything different than c. Simple.
 
Motor Daddy:

James. I am arguing Einstein is wrong, why would I use his methods, or postulates? You seem to think that I have to use his methods and work under his postulates to prove him wrong. That's absurd.

The first step, surely, is to understand his postulates and what they imply. Then, once you're on a solid footing with Einstein's theory, you might be in a position to criticise it.

There are, in fact, only two ways you can go about disproving Einstein's relativity. One is to show that results such as time dilation and length contraction do not follow logically or mathematically from the postulates. That would be a claim that relativity is inconsistent. People have had 100 years to work through this problem, so I'm fairly confident that the maths is solid at this point. Perhaps you disagree?

The other way you can disprove relativity is to attack the postulates themselves - i.e. claim that one or both postulates is false. The postulates, for the record, are:

1. The laws of physics take the same mathematical forms in all inertial reference frames.
2. The speed of light is the same in all inertial reference frames.

Now, this kind of disproof of relativity demands experimental evidence. In other words, what you need to do is to conduct an actual real-world experiment (or refer to one that somebody else has actually done) that shows, for example, that the speed of light is measurably different in two different reference frames. If you can do that, Einstein's whole house of cards falls down immediately.

---

Now, let's compare your approach, Motor Daddy. You imagine you can prove Einstein wrong by assertion. You assert, for example, that one-way light travel times in a moving train will be different in different directions as measured using clocks on the train. This amounts to a challenge to postulate 2 of special relativity, since it follows from that postulate that light takes equal times to travel equal distances in all inertial reference frames. The assertion you make is all well and good, but don't for a moment imagine that it is proof or disproof of anything. The only way to actually disprove postulate 2 is to get on a train and do a real-world timing experiment. (Of course, there are thousands of other experiments that have been already been done that prove relativity and disprove your assertion.)

One other point: You will probably claim that the light travelling forwards on the train does NOT travel an equal distance to the light travelling backwards. What you constantly miss is that this is true ONLY in the frame of the embankment. You constantly ignore the real implications of the words "frame of the train" and blindly go on working in only one frame while insisting that you're working in two. What does this show? It shows that, even after I walked you through the definition of a reference frame at length, you haven't grasped the concept. And without it, you can't begin to discuss relativity, let alone prove Einstein wrong.

I've done so many times on this board. The meter is defined by light travel time. They are inseparable. If you say light traveled for 1 second, it is irrefutable that it traveled 299,792,458 meters, because a meter is defined by light travel time. You can not separate the distance and time. Do you understand that? If not, learn it, it is CRUCIAL!

What is crucial to understand is that this applies in ALL reference frames, not just one. And I know you don't understand that.

It is also irrefutable that if you are 299,792,458 meters away from a light source when the light is emitted, if light doesn't impact you in 1 second, you moved, and from that you can calculate your velocity during that one second, because light always travels 299,792,458 m/s in a vacuum!

Right. But light will ALWAYS impact you in 1 second if you're 299792458 metres away from the source, no matter what reference frame you're in. In other words, it works equally on a moving train to how it is when you're standing on the embankment. Postulate 2 of relativity guarantees it.

Since you don't understand reference frames, you insist that you agree with postulate 2, but when it comes to discussing light travel times on the train you in fact immediately discard postulate 2 in favour of different apparent speeds of light on the train.

So you are of the camp that the light is 300,000 km in front of the train after 1 second? That's funny stuff right there. You're on the train and assume a zero velocity, and that the light is 300,000 km in front of you after 1 second, in your own little world, and everyone outside the train in my world can see how foolish that is.

It's not foolish at all. It follows directly from postulate 2 of relativity, which you claim to agree with.

So, either you change your mind and realise that your claiming that postulate 2 is false, or you work through the implications of really and honestly accepting postulate 2.
 
Interesting to look back 1 year to a thread that Motor Daddy started:

[thread=101728]A train, three clocks and an observer[/thread]

posted on 16 May, 2010.

Also interesting to read through a few responses. For example, from Pete on 17 May, 2010, to Motor Daddy:

Pete said:
Motor Daddy, the Michelson Morley experiment is equivalent to this.
The end clocks always appear in sync. That's what actually happens. This is not a thought experiment - it's reality.

You claim a particular result for an experiment.
Conducting the experiment produces a different result.

[post]2543848[/post]

How much progress in a year? I'd say, none at all.
 
...the light would move away from the train at 300,000 km/sec.
And how fast would move away from the tracks?
How about these?
Michelson-Morley experiment,Length contraction:
In 1932 the Kennedy–Thorndike experiment modified the Michelson–Morley experiment by making the path lengths of the split beam unequal, with one arm being very short. In this version a change of the velocity of the earth would still result in a fringe shift except if also the predicted time dilation is correct. Once again, no effect was seen, which they presented as evidence for both length contraction and time dilation, both key effects of relativity.
Recent experiments:
Such experiments have been repeated with increased precision until today, using laser, maser, cryogenic optical resonators, etc.. Examples that considerably reduce the possibility of anisotropy, are Hils and Hall (1990),[3], Braxmeier et al. (2002)[4], and Wolf et al. (2004).[5]
Besides those terrestrial measurements, a Kennedy-Thorndike experiment was carried out by Müller & Soffel (1995) using Lunar Laser Ranging, i.e., signals between Earth and Moon have been evaluated. This experiment gave a negative result as well.[6]
 
Interesting to look back 1 year to a thread that Motor Daddy started:

[thread=101728]A train, three clocks and an observer[/thread]

posted on 16 May, 2010.

Also interesting to read through a few responses. For example, from Pete on 17 May, 2010, to Motor Daddy:



How much progress in a year? I'd say, none at all.

In that thread, Motor Daddy was asked to look at actual real world measurements by several people (myself, funkstar, Janus58, rpenner, AlphaNumeric, probably others) several times. I have about half a dozen posts asking the same thing different ways, and each time was either ignored, or told that the claimed results were "simply impossible."

In this thread, I'll show that the results are possible, in a way that Motor Daddy can both understand and accept in his own worldview.
 
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In this thread, I'll show that the results are possible, in a way that Motor Daddy can both understand and accept in his own worldview.
Bet you can't.
Which is not to cast doubt on your abilities, but rather on Motor Daddy's mindset.
 
I'd like also to link back to my previous discussion with Motor Daddy from December 2010.

You can pick it up here at post #841 of the thread "On Einstein's explanation of the invariance of c", and follow through to post #887.

There's been no advance of note since then, either.

Allow me to quote some relevant sections of post #841, which apply equally now as they did then.

James R said:
Briefly, I agree with your numbers, but not in any absolute sense. The numbers you obtain using your method [on the embankment] would be those you'd obtain standing on ANY moving object [as well] watching the train go past.

....

Now, if I were to take the same light travel events and measure them in a different frame, I would measure different travel time intervals and, applying your same calculational procedure, calculate a different relative speed.

For example, suppose I measured those one-way travel times in the frame of the train. In that case, I would find, experimentally, that the light travel times were the same in both directions, and I would therefore calculate that the speed of the ship was zero relative to the ship's reference frame.

At this point, therefore, Motor Daddy, we don't have a disagreement about mathematics (with a couple of caveats I'll mention below). What we disagree about is how the universe actually works. You imagine that you'll always measure two different travel times for any object in motion relative to your hypothetical "absolute zero speed" reference frame. But actual, real-world experiments say different. They show that Einstein's two postulates of relativity do not mandate an "absolute zero speed" reference frame. In fact, they say that the laws of physics apply equally in ALL frames of reference and that there are no preferred frames.

Now, there's no way I can convince you of the truth of Einstein's posulates by arguing about them or showing you the maths, just as there is no way you'll ever convince me of your absolute reference frame by specifying calculation methods or making assertions. The final arbiter of who is right and who is wrong is nature herself. We have to look at what real-world experiments and observations tell us. We need to see what our respective theories predict, then do the experiment, then see who was right and who was wrong.

As a matter of fact, there are literally millions of separate experiments that show that Einstein was right and you are wrong. Many of those experiments use methods that go way beyond your direct measurements of times and distances. There are relativistic effects you probably have never heard of which have been verified as accurate to tens of decimal places. But the theory that has been verified rests on just those same two postulates that apply to basic measurements.

I previously asked you whether you believed in $$E=mc^2$$, for example. If you do, then you either have to believe in Einstein's spacetime (since that is where the equation comes from), or you have to produce some way of deriving the equation using your absolute picture. There's no other option, because the validity of the equation itself has been established experimental beyond all doubt.

....

To take one other example at random, your theory cannot calculate observed Doppler shifts of light correctly. Einstein's can. If the police used your theory to calibrate their radar guns, they'd get the wrong answers.

Your numbers don't prove anything about Einstein's theory. All you have done, essentially, is to work in the ground reference frame and then imagine that that particular frame has absolutely zero velocity, without even realising that that's what you're doing.

You don't seem to have any real ability to even imagine how things translate between reference frames. You're firmly anchored to the reference frame of the ground under your feet, and when it comes down to it, you really believe that the ground is (absolutely) not moving.

....

Every first-year undergraduate with a week of lectures on Einstein's relativity understands that light travels in space the same distance in the same time. What those first-year students understand that you do not is that this fact is true in any reference frame. Moreover, they understand that the only way that it can be true in all reference frames is if our intuitive ideas of space and time are altered in the way that Einstein derived from his posulates.

What you mean when you make your statement is that you think there is a single preferred reference frame, and light always has the same speed in that one frame. You actually believe that it is impossible to make valid measurements in any other frame, and so it really makes no sense to even try to measure the speed of light in any other frame, let alone the speed of some other object.

You're clearly limited in the extent to which you can visualise different reference frames. Essentially, you always imagine only one frame and you're unable to mentally translate yourself into any different frame. You're always outside the train watching it go past; you don't seem to have the capacity to put yourself inside to see what happens there. And so you imagine that light travel times inside a moving train will always be different in the two directions. In actual fact, if you're inside the train, the light travel times are always the same in both directions. That's an experimental fact, not an imagined one.

Here's another example your theory can't cope with:

Suppose I'm on a train travelling along the track at 0.8c. I fire a missile (or throw a ball or whatever) at 0.5c relative to the train, in the same direction the train is moving relative to the track.

Question: how fast does somebody standing on the track see that ball moving?

Your answer will be 0.5c if you think all speeds are absolute and relative speeds are impossible or make no sense. Or, your answer will be 1.3c, because you believe that the track is an absolute frame and, more importantly, you believe in an absolute time and space that does not really exist. No other answers even begin to occur to you.
---

I'm not sure whether you're familiar with the history of Einstein's theory and the questions in physics that led to its development. Have you heard of the Michelson-Morley experiment, which explicitly aimed to determine the speed of the Earth relative to your hypothetical "absolute zero speed" reference frame (at that time known as the "luminiferous aether")? It was found that the experiment always gave a result of zero, no matter what time of day it was performed, in what direction the apparatus was oriented etc. So, was the Michelson-Morley laboratory lucky enough to be the centre of the universe, absolutely stationary at all times? Or could there be some other explanation for the null results?

Why did physicists think there ought to be an "absolute zero speed" frame in the first place? Well, are you familiar with Maxwell's electromagnetic theory? It predicts a constant speed of light, irrespective of reference frame. In other words, the equations of electromagnetism (a) work in all reference frames, and (b) predict the same speed of light in every frame.

All well and good, you say, because the speed of light is a defined constant that never changes, you say. But your theory predicts mathematically that the speed of light, as determined by Maxwell's equations, should not be the same in every frame. You don't know it does that because you're probably unable to transform Maxwell's equations from one frame to another. But I can do it, and I know the answer. Worse still, your absolute-zero frame stuff doesn't even maintain the existence of travelling light waves between frames. It predicts that if you jump on a moving train, you won't see any light at all, let alone be able to measure anything with it, because your theory predicts that travelling light waves cannot exist in any reference frame except the "absolute zero speed" frame - a silly result that can be shown to be false just by you taking a quick stroll around with your eyes open so you can see stuff.

---

In summary, Motor Daddy, we have reached an impasse. No argument you can make about how you imagine light behaves can possibly convince me that it behaves in the way you imagine, because I know it doesn't behave like that from experimental results. But worse, nothing I write here can convince you that your imaginings are wrong, either, because they're all you have. I don't think you're equipped to understand much of the physical theory that led to Einstein's relativity. I doubt you have the mathematical background necessary even to understand the basic results or derivations of the theory itself. If you are aware of any of the experimental evidence, probably you have some explanations of how the expermentals are all flawed because all physicists for the past 130 years have been stupid and only you would have done the experiments correctly. But I'm guessing you're probably only aware of one or two experiments anyway, if any.

Some people try to attack Einstein's theory of special relativity by claiming that it is self-inconsistent. You're welcome to try that if you like. So far, as far as I can see you haven't made that particular claim, which is probably the most common one we see from crackpots here. You have claimed that Einstein's theory gives answers that are inconsistent with observation, but the only way you can support those claims is to point to actual experimental results that contradict the theory. Thought experiments in which measurements taken using light on a moving train, wherein the light has different travel times in each direction in the reference frame of the train won't cut the mustard. That kind of thing doesn't happen in reality; it only happens in your imagination.

To conclude, I think we've gone about as far as we can go with this, unless you can show some kind of fatal theoretical or experimental problem with Einstein's relativity, or you can show some experimental evidence for your theory.
 
Bet you can't.
Which is not to cast doubt on your abilities, but rather on Motor Daddy's mindset.

don%20quixote.jpg
 
Motor Daddy:

I'd like to ask you a couple of direct questions about measurements of the speed of light on the train vs. on the embankment.

Let us assume that we have a whole bunch of identical metre rulers. One set of these we align end-to-end along the embankment. The other set we nail to the floor of the train. For simplicity, let's take the speed of light to be 300,000,000 metres per second, and assume that the train is moving at half that speed, 150,000,000 metres per second. When the train is at rest, we measure its length (using either set of rulers) to be 300,000,000 metres (it's a very long train).

Now, suppose we send a light signal from the back of the train to the front while it is moving.

I have two questions for you:

1. How many embankment rulers does the light pass between leaving the rear of the train and arriving at the front?
2. How many rulers on the train does the light pass between leaving the rear of the train and arriving at the front?
3. How much time does the light take to travel from the rear to the front of the train in the embankment frame?
4. How much time does the light take to travel from the rear to the front of the train in the train's frame?

Can you answer these questions?

I hope to show you that you do not, in fact, believe that the speed of light is the same in all reference frames, despite your repeated claims that you do. Once I have your numbers, I'll only need one more post to do that.

(Note: you may assume, if necessary, that this particular embankment is absolutely at rest.)
 
Some might say that it takes a wise person to know a wise person. :cool:

Ready for the next step, in which the train observer makes his first measurement of the train's velocity?

Yup, but just for the record, you haven't established length contraction and time dilation, you simply asserted it. You want to use it? Prove it!

Let's see your first measurement.
 
Hi James,
Would you mind if Motor Daddy postponed answering your questions until my exercise is done? I'm deliberately avoiding talking about reference frames so far, because there are differences in the way they're understood that adds confusion.

We've only just reached a mutual understanding of a Lorentz-compatible absolute framework in my exercise, and I'd rather MD didn't have to jump between that paradigm and a relative reference frame paradigm in consecutive posts.
 
Yup, but just for the record, you haven't established length contraction and time dilation, you simply asserted it.
As per our agreement, this is exercise in the mathematical world of time dilation and length contraction.

In this mathematical world, it is a fundamental fact that moving clocks run slowly and moving rulers are contracted.

This mathematical world might or might not match the real world.

Do you accept that?
 
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