The real UFOs

Wow! A lot of views but no replies? All believers? All skeptics?

I think this report is a virtual smoking gun. Considering that in 1976 the Iranian military was an arm of US military power - note the F4s being used - and considering the distribution of this documents to nearly all of the highest levels of government, it is clear that this is not just an unsubstantiated wild report from an unreliable source. Clearly a report like this gets investigated before it goes to the White House, The Joint Chiefs of Staff, the NSA, CIA, the Secretary of Defense, and the many other offices listed on the routing list.

Next, the report indicates the source is highly reliable - page two.
Then we have the summary:
a) [not readable]...necessary for a valid study of a UFO phenomenon.

[not readable]

b) The credibility of the many witnesses was high (an air force general, qualified aircrews, and experienced tower operators).

c) Visual sightings were confirmed by radar.

d) Similar electromagnetic effects (EME) were reported by three separate aircraft.

e) There were physiological effects on some crew members (i.e. loss of night vision due to the brightness of the object).

f) An inordinate amount of maneuver-ability was displayed by the UFO's.

Although we don’t have the radar data and other specifics of the incident, clearly we have sufficient cause to argue that something was observed that apparently cannot be explained using the known boundaries of science.

Anyone disagree?
 
Hey Ivan:)
I would have posted something but I alrerady beleive and seeing eveidence like this is just another log on the fire.
The evidence and implications are great.
Just curious,have you ever seen anything personaly yourself?
Peace Out
 
You believe what exactly? There are a multitude of claimed reasons for UFOs.
 
What do you think, my good friend persol?
that aliens and life,are truly universal

I beleive we are being watched,from something outside
by beings and spacecraft,and they're time they do bide

It is only a matter,of a little more time
for the next step to happen,for good ol humankind

I don't choose to use a word like believe
it is to strong a concept,to apply and concieve

From now on,when you here the name Moe
Remember,I just don't beleive,or think.......I KNOW!:eek:
Peace Out
 
Originally posted by moementum7
Hey Ivan:)
I would have posted something but I alrerady beleive and seeing eveidence like this is just another log on the fire.
The evidence and implications are great.
Just curious,have you ever seen anything personaly yourself?
Peace Out

I don't think so. I am hoping to see something soon at a local hot spot; but thus far the hot spotter seems to be full of hot air. Still, I know that people are seeing something in the Washington Cascade Mountains; and they have for centuries. I am also open to the possibility that these are really some kind of geological phenomenon such as earthquake lights - perhaps something similar to ball lightning. The authentic videos from news services and such did not show something that looked UFOish - it looks more like an EM phenomenon to me. Of course, one never knows about those sneaky aliens
 
Them sneaky bastards!:D

If I ever saw an alien with a patch on one eye,and a parrot on his shoulder,I would probly think twice before I got on his ship.;)
 
I've got a lot of documents from the freedom of information act C.I.A. D.I.A. N.S.A. F.B.I. and i got the goods on the D.N.I.
 
Iran 1976

Thanks for the links, Ivan. No doubt the 1976 Iranian UFO incident ranks as one of the most intriguing and suggestive of them all. Once again, we need to be careful about what the evidence shows, as opposed to what speculation we can reasonably or unreasonably draw from that evidence. Even without speculation, the facts alone warrant further investigation.

This is where the debunkers lose all their credibility, including at least one poster on this forum; what do we do with this data at this point? Well, we have choices; we can simply stop thinking about the incident, because it doesn't fit our worldview, or we can examine it and try to draw reasonable conclusions that arise naturally from the data. We could rephrase that to say that we will either engage in intellectual cowardice, or we can behave with epistemological integrity.

What is clear is that no known prosaic explanations exist for the events as described.

As well, we cannot reasonably claim that any human technology was responsible, since no known technology accounts for the incident. I recall that there some attempts to debunk the incident by claiming that the systems malfunctions aboard the F-4s were not unusual for that plane. However, that "explanation" failed to account for the timing of the malfunctions and the observations involved. Even if we concluded that there were normal system malfunctions occuring, we would still be left with a remarkable incident.

We are then left with object(s) exhibiting light that does not correspond to any natural phenomenon, and behavior that does not appear random, but rather appears responsive to the stimuli (the Iranian planes) around it.

This is where it get's tricky, and its best to be conservative in our conclusions. I'm going to cut and paste from CohenUFO a little here since I can't paste from the PDF files:


The UFO and the pursuing F-4 were on a course taking them south of Tehran when suddenly another smaller brilliant object came out of the UFO. F-4 Missile Fails To Fire This second object came directly toward the pursuing F-4 traveling at a very high rate of speed. The pilot started to fire an AIM-9 missile at the rapidly approaching object, but at the moment his weapons control panel went off and simultaneously he lost all communications. With no other defense left, the pilot turned sharply and put the F-4 into a dive in an attempt to evade the projectile from the UFO. The maneuver was not successful since as the F-4 continued its diving turn, the object changed course and trailed the jet briefly at a distance estimated to be 3 to 4 miles. It then increased its speed, went to the inside of the jet's turn, and climbed back to rejoin the "Mother ship."

Is there a basis for us to conclude that this behavior is volitional? It seems that one would have to do rhetorical backwards somersaults to characterize this action as described as anything but an intentional act. If indeed we have intent, then there has to be an existence of some sort behind that attempt. The intent shown also made sense, even to the human brain; keep that plane away. So in our crude attempt to engage in a little behavioral profiling of this. . . this. . .existence, for want of a better word, we discover something: that this existence itself is engaged in relatively subtle behavior modication. For all we know, it could have simply destroyed the plane; it did not, for reasons we can't know.

We also learned that the existence regarded the approach of the plane as some sort of threat, although we should shy from being too congratulatory about our military prowess. The plane may have presented a physical threat, the plane could have identified the object, or taken pictures of it. . . or the object may have represented a threat to the plane; perhaps the existence aboard the object had knowledge that close physical proximity of the plane represented a threat to the plane; hence what appeared to be an act of intimidation may have actually have been an altruistic act.

Remember that above I remarked about how this gets "tricky" and how we should be conservative in our interpretation of the data. . . All we can reasonably surmise from the behavior is that the existence desired that the plane remain at a distance. It would seem reasonable to assume that the existence had some knowledge that the pilot would react to the approaching object in a predictable way and turn away, which he did.

From all this we can pull some facts and reasonable inferences based on those facts; that an object appeared in Iranian airspace in 1976; that this object responded to external stimuli in a way that strongly suggests intelligence and a desire to affect the behavior of the external stimuli.

I sometimes wonder at this point about the reasonableness of the ETH. Under the attacks of the debunkers, UFO researchers can be pretty defensive about the ETH, since there is no direct evidence that an object such as this is an extraterrestrial spacecraft. On the other hand, we ourselves have traveled to our own moon, and sent robot ships to other planets. We are currently engaged in research of exotic propulsion systems in the hope of interstellar travel.

Knowing all this, we look at an incident like this one; it appears to be intelligent and non-human, from all reasonable appearances. It appears, and stress that word, appears to behave in a way that suggests thought processes not completely different from our own. Q actually made one good point on a different thread, as I recall, and to give credit where credit is due; we make an assumption when we assume we are the only intelligence from Earth. But we have no data suggest that there is any other intelligence on Earth capable of producing the phenomenon observed in 1976, so an unknown terrestrial intelligence is just one of several possibilities.

From what we know in the public arena, we are now able to travel through local space, and have plans for more long range travel. It does not appear we have made any strides at all in any theoretical travel to other realms, such as other dimensions. So perhaps interstellar travel is easier than interdimensional travel. So does that mean that it is more reasonable to conclude that the occupants, if any, of this object were extraterrestrials than extradimensionals? In other words, what are the known choices for the sources of a non-human manifestation of intelligence such as the one that appeared in the skies of Iran in 1976?
 
Ives sez:

This is where the debunkers lose all their credibility

That’s rather ironic considering the believers continually try to add credibility to their claims when they have no idea what IS credible and what is not.

Well, we have choices; we can simply stop thinking about the incident, because it doesn't fit our worldview, or we can examine it and try to draw reasonable conclusions that arise naturally from the data.

Or simply ignore it because it will benefit no one, ever.

And please do enlighten us who are so ignorant – what reasonable conclusions can you draw? What benefit will your conclusions be to anyone?

What exactly is the point to the futility of your actions?

What is clear is that no known prosaic explanations exist for the events as described.

You don’t know that for certain – that is merely your biased opinion.

As well, we cannot reasonably claim that any human technology was responsible, since no known technology accounts for the incident.

Your claims get sillier and less credible as you move through this post. What you’re implying is that you are completely knowledgeable in all forms of technology, including that which is kept under the strictest confidence and that you believe nothing terrestrial can account. How gullible do you think we are?

On the other hand, we ourselves have traveled to our own moon, and sent robot ships to other planets. We are currently engaged in research of exotic propulsion systems in the hope of interstellar travel.

Hence, ET must exist?

it appears to be intelligent and non-human

Again, you draw a ridiculous conclusion considering you have no comparisons to refer. More fallacies.

so an unknown terrestrial intelligence is just one of several possibilities.

That’s quite a stretch – do you think that another intelligent species has evolved along with man and has been hiding out these millennia?

It does not appear we have made any strides at all in any theoretical travel to other realms, such as other dimensions. So perhaps interstellar travel is easier than interdimensional travel.

You’re entering the realm of science fiction, again.

So does that mean that it is more reasonable to conclude that the occupants, if any, of this object were extraterrestrials than extradimensionals?

I like that, “reasonable to conclude” – a choice between two fantasies.

In other words, what are the known choices for the sources of a non-human manifestation of intelligence such as the one that appeared in the skies of Iran in 1976?

Terrestrial, non-intelligent, phenomenon – if may be difficult, mundane and boring for a believer to wrap their head around such an explanation, but at the very least, give it a try.
 
Damn interesting. Most certainly a UFO, looks intelligent. I'm more likely to learn towards an undiscovered earth based phenomonea, but unearthly can't be ruled out.
 
One other thing about that incident; the apparent loss of on-board control of the F-4's systems, including weapons systems.

What do we know ? That the systems malfunctioned at the exact times to affect instrumentation and a weaons system aboard the plane.

What is one hypothesis? That the UFO caused this malfunction. There is no way to test this hypothesis. So, we are left with two choices; coincidence or causation. It is one or the other.

The idea that UFOs affect military hardware is hardly new. Consider the Coyne-Mansfield helicopter incident from 1973. Consider the Malmstrom missile incident. Viewed together, these incidents suggest an interest in our military hardware; in fact they suggest experimentation with control of our military hardware, including our WMDs.

These incidents, and Malmstrom in particular, demostrate clearly why UFOs, whatever they are, are undeniably a national security issue regardless of Air Force protests to the contrary. In Malmstrom, even disregarding the missile shutdown aspect, we learn that unidentified objects occasionally enter our most restrictive airspace and leave it again with inpunity. Now consider that said restricted airspace was over our ICBM silos, and further add the incident of missile shutdown concurrent with the appearance of a UFO.

What responsible reading of those facts would suggest that such UFOs are not a national security issue? At one point, the government refers to the UFOs as unknown "helicopters". This isn't of much comfort, if "helicopters" are able to enter the airspace over missile silos and leave again without consequence. And if that isn't a national security issue, someone's making some pretty irresponsible decisions about what is or is not a national security issue. So, given the undeniable status of UFOs as a national security concern, we know that the government will treat the subject as it does every other subject of national security import; it will employ disinformation and propaganda. I can just hear someone warming up the words "conspiracy theory". So be it then; is someone going to claim there is no such thing as a conspiracy? Besides, would someone argue that the government is or should be totally honest with the public about matters of national security?
 
Sigh. You are tiresome, Q. I'm sure I'll regret this, and I had said I would ignore you. Like other ignorant people, you are so righteous in your beliefs. Dear me, how could anyone differ from you after exposure of your greatness?

"That’s rather ironic considering the believers continually try to add credibility to their claims when they have no idea what IS credible and what is not." Really? What is your evidence for that statement?

"Or simply ignore it because it will benefit no one, ever." Wow. This falls into the "how can you say that with a straight face" catagory. Ignore an incident like this. Because somehow, you know that study will "benefit no one, ever . You're just so clever the way you know things like that! Humankind has surely made great strides because of people like you!

(Ives): "What is clear is that no known prosaic explanations exist for the events as described."

(Q): "You don’t know that for certain – that is merely your biased opinion".

No, Q, I try to be precise in my language and said no known
prosaic explanation. If you could read English properly, you would see I left the door open to a prosaic explanantion currently unknown.


(Ives): "As well, we cannot reasonably claim that any human technology was responsible, since no known technology accounts for the incident."

(Q): "Your claims get sillier and less credible as you move through this post. What you’re implying is that you are completely knowledgeable in all forms of technology, including that which is kept under the strictest confidence and that you believe nothing terrestrial can account. How gullible do you think we are?"

No Q (I feel like I'm talking to a know it all child here, and I probably am), I said we can't reasonably claim human technology was responsible, as no known technology accounts for the incident. Again, I left the door open, but your rush to justify your beliefs caused you to not read carefully. Like I said before, you've got homework to do.

(Ives) "it appears to be intelligent and non-human"

(Q): "Again, you draw a ridiculous conclusion considering you have no comparisons to refer. More fallacies."

I will stand by the statement. Let's be clear here; you are advocating ignoring this incident; not being a curious individual. Having declared that the incident should be ignored, an astonishing admission in and of itself, you mock attempts to analyze it. This saves you from having to examine the specifics of the behavior and respond to those specifics. How convenient for you, and how transparent. But boy, you've sure got the high ground here, and showed how big your intellectual prowess is!

Finally, we have this nugget:

"Terrestrial, non-intelligent, phenomenon – if may be difficult, mundane and boring for a believer to wrap their head around such an explanation, but at the very least, give it a try.". No Q, while I clearly did not rule out that theory, I didn't advance it. You did. So let's see if you've got the guts to follow through on your theory. "Give it a try". We're waiting. Give us this explanation that fits the facts!
 
Great links on iran btw;

If funding could be obtained.
I have a thought on the subject of how to proceed. It came to me watching STS 75 tether video. I beleive just about any major visual display will trigger the arrivals of Alien Craft. To Prove this theory unfortunately I would need a rocket that could put 2 tethers of simular size 50 miles apart. And the ability to video what happens next. I also have thoughts on ground displays in remote areas of wyoming, alaska Canada or antartica. The proof would be in the pudding. Imagine a Neon sign that can be read from space (solar or wind powered of course). I figured what is our planet really good at ? hmmm Advertising (lol).
 
Originally posted by Ives
One other thing about that incident; the apparent loss of on-board control of the F-4's systems, including weapons systems.

What do we know ? That the systems malfunctioned at the exact times to affect instrumentation and a weaons system aboard the plane.

What is one hypothesis? That the UFO caused this malfunction. There is no way to test this hypothesis. So, we are left with two choices; coincidence or causation. It is one or the other.

We tested the hypothesis with 2nd 3rd F4,s and a commercial Airliner. We compared it to what a witness on the ground saw. Bet you dont know that 2 plus 2 is 4.
 
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Could you fill me in on the Malestrom event? My DNS server seems to be at a disagreement with me. I can't even get google open.

Exactly what kind of evidence is there that the event happened? Who confirmed this? Last but not least, where'd the information of the Boeing analysis come from?

From the bits and pieces of the story that I've been hearding, my first thought was 'why would the government stop researching this?' They spend YEARS researching much more mundane events that don't have any relevance to nuclear weapons.
 
Originally posted by fluid1959
Apparently you can't read!. We tested the hypothesis with 2nd 3rd F4,s and a commercial Airliner. We compared it to what a witness on the ground saw. Bet you dont know that 2 plus 2 is 4.
Sorry, but this makes no sense. How did you test the hypothosis that a UFO caused the malfunction, without a UFO present? If you were talking about the other option, how'd you test 'coincidence'?
 
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