The Quran speaks of an 18.25 billion years old universe started by a Big Bang

[Flores]

Why is it being circulated by Atheists that the religious scriptures, Quran and bible dictate that our universe is very young. That's not correct, at least from the Quran prespective. and please examine this

Take a look at these two verses:

1) "the angels and the spirit ascend unto Him in a day, the measure of which was fifty thousand years." 70:4

This verse refers to the ascent of angels and the spirit (meant to be Gabriel) back to heaven after settling all matters of life in the universe.

The verse clearly said a day that "was" and not a day that 'is', which clearly indicates that that day was in the past (50,000 years ago).

2) "…a day relative to your God is equivalent to a thousand years of your count." 22:47

With a few simple equations:

If 1 day (for God) = 1000 years (for man)

1 year = 1000 x 365 (for man)

= 365,000 years

50,000 years (for God) = 365,000 x 50,000 (for man)

= 18.25 billion!

The Quran claims that a big bang (ripping apart of two components, space and matter) happened over 18.25 billion years ago.

"Do not the unbelievers see that the skies (space) and the earth (matter) were joined together (as one unit of creation) and we ripped them apart?" The Quran, 21:30

"Then He took hold of the sky when it was smoke." 41:11

"…as if it were a brilliant star……..whose oil (fuel) is well lit, even no fire touches it." 24:35

Note: Some of the equations and analysis in this post were borrowed from http://www.submission.org/universe.html

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Flores
Why is it being circulated by Atheists that the religious scriptures, Quran and bible dictate that our universe is very young.

Actually, that's the claim of the Biblicists. Atheists (and others) just sometimes make use of it. I can't recall anyone saying that of the Quran although I could be wrong. Of course, from what we can tell the Universe does not seem to be quite as old as 18.25 billion years but who knows what else we might find.

1) "the angels and the spirit ascend unto Him in a day, the measure of which was fifty thousand years." 70:4

This verse refers to the ascent of angels and the spirit (meant to be Gabriel) back to heaven after settling all matters of life in the universe.

The verse clearly said a day that "was" and not a day that 'is', which clearly indicates that that day was in the past (50,000 years ago).

2) "…a day relative to your God is equivalent to a thousand years of your count." 22:47

It seems to me that there is simply a conflict between the two statements. One says that the measure of a day was 50,000 years and the next says that a day is equivalent to 1000 years. Or is one day for Gabriel equal to 50,000 of God's years? Or is one day for Gabriel 50,000 of man's years.

Please realize that I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. I just don't find that this is as clear as you profess it to be. I'm willing to be corrected.

~Raithere

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Raithere
It seems to me that there is simply a conflict between the two statements.

Not at all, and let's examine below.

Originally posted by Raithere
One says that the measure of a day was 50,000 years and the next says that a day is equivalent to 1000 years. Or is one day for Gabriel equal to 50,000 of God's years? Or is one day for Gabriel 50,000 of man's years.

Let's number the verses for ease of discussion.

1) "the angels and the spirit ascend unto Him in a day, the measure of which was fifty thousand years." 70:4
2) "…a day relative to your God is equivalent to a thousand years of your count." 22:47


First we need to define some terms and entities as stated above.

a- God is described as the point of relation (relative to your god). So god is the center of all relativity theories to which everything is related to.

b- A man is described as a creation entity that is able of counting. Man counts time based on signs that is observed like the moon and the stars.

c- A measure is clearly different than a count. While man count, god uses a measure to relate activities to his own time.

d- God tells us that one day relative to god is equivalent to a thousand counted day by men.

In verse 1, god tells us that one angel close of business day measures 50,000 God years. In verse 2, god tells us that each one of god days is equivalent to 1000 man counted years. There is absolutely no reason to conclude that in verse one, god was speaking of 50,000 man years, because that was not stated. We are told in the Quran that man counts while god measures, and thus all measurements should be attributed to Allah. God measured the activities of the angel to be 50,000 god years.

That's my analysis and it may be wrong, but any other analysis to laugh off Quran as a joke or error is also a big mistake.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Flores
There is absolutely no reason to conclude that in verse one, god was speaking of 50,000 man years, because that was not stated.

For clarity it would seem to be important seeing as the same words are being used with multiple meanings.

We are told in the Quran that man counts while god measures, and thus all measurements should be attributed to Allah.

I could not find that reference but regardless it seems a bit weak to me considering that man is given repeatedly to give full measure and not cheat when measuring. For instance:

[17.35] And give full measure when you measure out, and weigh with a true balance; this is fair and better in the end.


And how does the calculation reconcile with these statements?

[7:54] Your Lord is the one GOD, who created the heavens and the earth in six DAYS,* then assumed all authority.

[41:9] Say, "You disbelieve in the One who created the earth in two days, and you set up idols to rank with Him, though He is Lord of the universe.

[41:10] He placed on it stabilizers (mountains), made it productive, and He calculated its provisions in four days, to satisfy the needs of all its inhabitants.

[41:12] Thus, He completed the seven universes in two DAYS, and set up the laws for every universe. And we adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and placed guards around it. Such is the design of the Almighty, the Omniscient.

That's my analysis and it may be wrong, but any other analysis to laugh off Quran as a joke or error is also a big mistake.

I certainly do not take it as a joke but I still find the assertion of it's validity regarding 'scientific' matters such as the age of the Universe rather weak. Again, I am not making fun but if you make such a claim I expect it to be well defended.

~Raithere

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Well said Sister.

''He has made night and day subservient to you, and the sun and moon and stars, all subject to His command. There is certainly Signs in that for people who pay heed. (The Noble Quran,Surat an-Nahl: 12)''

The Creation of the Universe from Islamic perspective:

http://www.harunyahya.com/create01.php

 

[No!]

I think a more important question is why people must use others work, and not even supply a link to it?

Is this not plagerism?

http://www.submission.org/universe.html

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Raithere
For clarity it would seem to be important seeing as the same words are being used with multiple meanings.

I don't follow this very well. What other multiple meanings can we attribute to the verses in question.

Originally posted by Raithere
I could not find that reference but regardless it seems a bit weak to me considering that man is given repeatedly to give full measure and not cheat when measuring. For instance:

Yes, man can measure things that are beneath him or under his subjection and direct influence, like budget, property, ect...Measure is a big word to be reserved for use to a designer or the one in control. Count is more appropriate for things that we have no total knowldge of and no control over. We can count the stars in the skies but it's in no way a measure of how many stars are actually in the skies....Do you get the difference between the two.....Just my opinion. God have chose the rich arabic language for this precise reason, each word means precisely what it's supposed to mean...translations are tricky, but we have no way but to use them considering that you don't know arabic...again I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Raithere
I certainly do not take it as a joke but I still find the assertion of it's validity regarding 'scientific' matters such as the age of the Universe rather weak. Again, I am not making fun but if you make such a claim I expect it to be well defended.

~Raithere

Of course I know the value of your opinion Raith, It's very valuable to me because I know that you're wise, consistent, and objective in your views. I also happen to personally like you despite your intelligence...call it faith based assessment...good vibes...whatever. You have all my respect. But what frustrates me sometimes about you, is that I find you overly conservative in your assessments. I guess you tend to put people through the ringer, which is a good thing.

 

[Raithere]

Originally posted by Flores
I don't follow this very well. What other multiple meanings can we attribute to the verses in question.

I meant the words such as 'day' and 'year' which have conflicting meanings depending upon their use and interpretation. Such vagaries cause lots of confusion.

Do you get the difference between the two.....Just my opinion. God have chose the rich arabic language for this precise reason, each word means precisely what it's supposed to mean...translations are tricky, but we have no way but to use them considering that you don't know arabic...again I could be wrong.

I get it; although one might note that as our knowledge increases that which we have the ability to measure would likewise increase. Arabic is one of the languages I wish I could work up the initiative and find the time to learn; perhaps some day.

Of course I know the value of your opinion Raith, It's very valuable to me because I know that you're wise, consistent, and objective in your views. I also happen to personally like you despite your intelligence...call it faith based assessment...good vibes...whatever. You have all my respect. But what frustrates me sometimes about you, is that I find you overly conservative in your assessments. I guess you tend to put people through the ringer, which is a good thing.

Thank you. I don't really feel that I deserve such praise. I'm really just trying to be as open minded and honest as possible. And while I try not to be hard on people, I do tend to really hammer on ideas... particularly assertions. I know I come across as kind of harsh sometimes. Believe me; I'm less forgiving of my own ideas than of others. If you knew how many posts I have to toss out and rethink because I caught myself up in some error you'd think I was an idiot.

~Raithere

 

[James R]

Flores:

<i>With a few simple equations:

If 1 day (for God) = 1000 years (for man)

1 year = 1000 x 365 (for man)

= 365,000 years

50,000 years (for God) = 365,000 x 50,000 (for man)

= 18.25 billion! </i>


That's all very well, but where did you get the information that 50000 God years = the age of the universe?

You've quoted nothing which supports that.

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by No!
I think a more important question is why people must use others work, and not even supply a link to it?

Is this not plagerism?

http://www.submission.org/universe.html

I agree, but submission.org is NOT Islamic site, they are NOT Muslims, anyone who deny the Sunnah or the Hadith is not Muslim.

 

[everneo]

What about Abraham who was not aware of haddith. for that matter, what about the Prophet himself.? Abu Hurayrah had to answer a lot if at all he met the Prophet in heaven.!

 

[guthrie]

Not having my wee guide to islam handy, I cant remember what the Sunnah are, but surely the Hadith are not compulsory? Havnt there been wars waged on that subject, of how much to take the Hadith for real?

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by everneo
What about Abraham who was not aware of haddith. for that matter, what about the Prophet himself.? Abu Hurayrah had to answer a lot if at all he met the Prophet in heaven.!

What Abraham has to do with the Hadith anyway ???

What about the prophet ? and this great man Abu Hurayrah who narrated so many hadiths on the prophet(pbuh ) ?

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Originally posted by guthrie
Not having my wee guide to islam handy, I cant remember what the Sunnah are, but surely the Hadith are not compulsory? Havnt there been wars waged on that subject, of how much to take the Hadith for real?

The Sunnah is the sayings ( The Hadiths ) and the life of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), of course not all hadiths are correct or authentic and that is why we have in Islam the science of FIGH ( the scinece of verification the authentic hadiths ).

those who deny the hadith and the sunnah are called SHIA, and Shia is small sect of Islam that many mainstream muslim scholars dont consider even muslims.

for more information here is a link for you:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/fiqhussunnah/

http://www.al-sunnah.com/

http://www.islamworld.net/

those who deny the SUUNAH are Not Muslims, they commit horrible things which are far from Islam, those are the ones who made submission.org website, here is some of their actions:

And for more about that, here is amazing link in Arabic and English, you can choose English to read about this corrupt sect of Islam.

http://www.ansar.org

 

[Flores]

James

Originally posted by James R

That's all very well, but where did you get the information that 50000 God years = the age of the universe?

You've quoted nothing which supports that.

Actually I did. The quote I brought describes the final ascend to the higher dimension, or the end of our universe as we know it.

It's a good question though. Actually the age quoted of 18.25 billion years is believed to include the entire story of the universe from big bang to roll up contraction, and are not finished yet. The universe is still here and the 18.25 billion years is believed to be the entire age of the universe. I don't know how far into it we are right now...Perhpas 12 billion years, perhaps 4 billion years, perhpas 18.25 billion years. God knows and he tell us so.

"Men ask you of the Hour. Say the knowledge of it is with Allah only. What can convey to you it may be that the Hour is Near." Sura 33 verse 63

"The threatened hour is near. None beside Allah can disclose it. Are you surprised then at this statement?" Sura 53 verse 57,58,59


First you must understand that the Quran makes it clear to muslims that the creation of the universe is much bigger than the existance and creation of mankind.

"The creation of the heavens and the earth is definitely greater thing than the creation of mankind, but most of mankind knows not." Sura 40 verse 57.

Second, we are told in the Quran that as the universe started as with a big explosion and expansion called the big bang, it shall end in a contraction matching the expansion.

"Do not the unbelievers see that the skies (space) and the earth (matter) were joined together (as one unit of creation) and we ripped them apart?" The Quran, 21:30
"The day when We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolls up a written scroll. As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it." Sura 21 verse 104

We are told that time that have passed have not been lost, but is recorded in the universe....nothing at all is ever lost. Our universe is keeping record of every little bit of action like a giant computer would.

"This book pronounces agains you with truth. We have caused (all) you did to be recorded. (in time)." Sura 5 verse 29
"And there is nothing hidden in the heavens or the earth but it is a clear record ( in time)" Sura 27 verse 75.

Then gravity will be reversed.

"When earth is shaken with her final earthquake" Sura 99

Then our ROUND earth will finally be emptied out of it's content. A summary of the final days is shown below.

"And when earth is spread out (from it's round state). And cast out all that was in her and is "empty". Al-Quran: Sura 84 verses 3-4
1. When earth is shaken with her final earthquake.
2. And earth yields its burdens. (From within)
3. And man says what aileth her.
4. That day she will relate her chronicles..(History in time)
5. Because your Lord inspires her.
6. That day mankind will issue forth (from earth) in scattered groups to be shown their deeds. (As time runs backward)
Sura 99: Earthquake.

 

[Flores]

A moment of truth.

It's Ramadan and I'm having a hard time hiding my true feelings about you...it feels so sinful....so here's my moment of truth with you.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
The Sunnah is the sayings ( The Hadiths ) and the life of the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh),

Who cares about the life of Prophet Muhammed but the god who will judge him on it. Why are you advocating the judging and the mimicing of a life of a dead man? Let his bones rest in peace for god sake, haven't you had enough gossip about him and his wives and his life style. Let the man rest, or at least his memory rest. Gosh.....I really feel for all these dead saints and prophets....They're literally abused alive and dead....The prophet is dead, and Allah is all living. I have already obeyed the prophet by believing in his message and accepting god, nothing is stated about mimicing the life of a man or following a book that will be made by mortals and subject for Fiqh called a Sunna. Why doesn't the Quran mention the Suannah? Only the message not the life is the essense of this. How can I mimic a man and I'm a woman. Where is the prophetess for the woman that women are supposed to follow? I forbid to walk in any man or women shadow, because in judgement day, I'm responsible for myself and no salvation shall be provided by the prophet to a muslim nation...that's plain paganism. No salvation, except the self. Which wife is exactly supposed to be the role model for women. Kadija the older business women, or Aisha, or the christian Mirium that kept her religion, or the jewish girl that stayed jewish, or the rich one, or the slave....No role models.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
those who deny the hadith and the sunnah are called SHIA, and Shia is small sect of Islam that many mainstream muslim scholars dont consider even muslims.

Where do you get off from labeling others??. Do you think you are god or something? Who cares about the labels that you assign to humanity? You are noone...you are nothing, and will be made to shut up in judgement day when only god will be judging based on the ONE criteria...not your brain washed convictions...Worry about yourself for a change.....go shave or something.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
those who deny the SUUNAH are Not Muslims

Indeed, they are not YOUR muslims...or submitters to your cult and ignorance. We are muslims to god and only god, our submission is only to god.....You'll find us the most submitters to the right and most resistant to your likes, and noone can judge us but our creator....go take a hike and submit some more to what you think the Prophet have told you to do. Leave us freakin alone....you're wasting our times and yours.

I have nothing else to tell you except.

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

PS...Don't ever PM me....I'll delete it without reading it.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by No!
Is this not plagerism?

Here's another stick for you. Your homework is to find out where I got those from.

__________________________________________________
And your crybaby whiny assed opinion would be.....?

Do I look like a fucking people person?

If I throw a stick will you leave??

YOU!.... Off my planet!

Did the aliens forget to remove your anal probe?

Ohhh, let me turn on the part of my brain that gives a damn.

A hard on doesn't count as personal growth.

Well, this day was a total waste of make-up .

A woman's favorite position is CEO

I'm trying to imagine you with a personality.

Chaos, panic, disorder - my work here is done.

I plead contemporary insanity.

And which dwarf are you?
__________________________________________________

Hope that'll keep you busy for the next century.

 

[Proud_Syrian]

Re: A moment of truth.

Originally posted by Flores
It's Ramadan and I'm having a hard time hiding my true feelings about you...it feels so sinful....so here's my moment of truth with you.
=============================
P S:

So you know already it feels SO sinful, right ?

=================================
Who cares about the life of Prophet Muhammed
==================================
P S:

Did you know you that without the SUNNAH of the prophet, you wont know how to pray or even make WUDU ( ABLUTION ), is there anything in the Quran about how to pray and what to say during your prayer ?? =================================

but the god who will judge him on it. Why are you advocating the judging and the mimicing of a life of a dead man?
Let his bones rest in peace for god sake, haven't you had enough gossip about him and his wives and his life style.
================================
P S:

May Allah forgive your ignorance, you will answer Allah almighty one day for what you are saying now.

===================================
Let the man rest, or at least his memory rest. Gosh.....I really feel for all these dead saints and prophets....They're literally abused alive and dead....The prophet is dead, and Allah is all living. I have already obeyed the prophet by believing in his message and accepting god,
====================================
P S:

You are so confused, in your first line you said, ''who cares about the life of the prophet Muhammad'' and now you are saying you have already obeyed the prophet, May Allah help you, you are so confused
====================================

nothing is stated about mimicing the life of a man or following a book that will be made by mortals and subject for Fiqh called a Sunna. Why doesn't the Quran mention the Suannah?

====================================
P S:

OH MY GOD !!!! IS THAT A QUESTION A MUSLIM CAN ASK ?? You did not even read the Quran !!! If you read the Quran you will discover that the SUNNAH is ESSTENTIAL INTEGRATED PART OF ISLAM..........here you go, May Allah guides you:

''And whatsoever the Messenger(Muhammad) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment." (59:7)

''O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger , and those of you who are in authority. If you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is better and more suitable for final determination." (4:59)

''And We have sent you (Muhammad) as a Messenger to mankind, and Allah is sufficient as a Witness.He who obeys the Messenger(Muhammad), has indeed obeyed Allah, , but he who turns away, then We have not sent you as a watcher over them." (4:79-80)

Allah states in the Holy Qur'aan "O those who believe, respond to the call of Allah and His Messenger when he calls you for what gives you life"(8:24).

"But no, by your Lord! They could not be believers, until they make you (Muhammad) judge in all disputes between them and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them fully with submission." ( 4:65 )

''The only saying of the faithful believers, when they are called to Allah and His Messenger, to judge between them, is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And such are the successful. And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, fears Allah, and keeps his duty, such are the successful." (24:51-52)

''Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, your kindred, the wealth you have gained, the commerce in which you fear decline, or the dwellings in which you delight -- are dearer to you than Allah orHis Messenger(Muhammad)and striving in His cause -- then wait until Allah brings about His decision. And Allah guides not the rebellious." (9:24)

"The Prophet has a higher claim on the believers than [they have on] their own selves." (33:6)

''Allah knows best with whom to place His Message." (6:124)

"It is not fit for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and Messenger has indeed strayed in a plain manner." (33:36)

''And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow, to abide therein, and that will be the great success. And whosoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, and transgress His Limits, He will cast him into the Fire, to abide therein, and he shall have a disgraceful torment." (4:13-14)

''Indeed in the Messenger of Allah(Muhammad) you have an excellent example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much." (33:21)

''Let those beware who oppose the Messenger’s order! In case some fitnah(trial) should befall them or a painful torment be inflicted upon them." (24:63)

''Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is no less than revelation sent down to him." (53:3-4)
===================================


Only the message not the life is the essense of this. How can I mimic a man and I'm a woman. Where is the prophetess for the woman that women are supposed to follow? I forbid to walk in any man or women shadow, because in judgement day, I'm responsible for myself and no salvation shall be provided by the prophet to a muslim nation...that's plain paganism. No salvation, except the self. Which wife is exactly supposed to be the role model for women. Kadija the older business women, or Aisha, or the christian Mirium that kept her religion, or the jewish girl that stayed jewish, or the rich one, or the slave....No role models.
=====================================
P S:

You are very confused lady, Khadija was the first MUSLIM WOMAN to believe, she was storng, indepedent and very wealthy, Aisha, the mother of all believers narrated thousands of Ahadiths of the prophet(pbuh), or FATIMA the daughter of the prophet, or ASMA' the daughter of Abu bakr, or NASIBAH, the Muslim woman WARRIOR who fought in UHUD defending the prophet(pbuh)...you are cleary so ignorant of Islam and its history and its teachings, read more my dear sister, May Allah guide you..

=======================================
Where do you get off from labeling others??. Do you think you are god or something? Who cares about the labels that you assign to humanity? You are noone...you are nothing, and will be made to shut up in judgement day when only god will be judging based on the ONE criteria...not your brain washed convictions...Worry about yourself for a change.....go shave or something.
========================================
P S:

Correcting you is not labeling my dear sister, you are WRONG and I will not stop saying that, you are misguiding others who think you are muslim when in fact, you dont know the A B C about Islam.

My advice to you is to go to your local mosque and ask the Imam there about what you have just said and wrote about the Prophet(pbuh) specially when you said with so much pathetic ignorance and arrogance: ' who cares about the life of the prophet'' ? and please dont forget to tell me how was his response when he heard your comments..
=======================================

Indeed, they are not YOUR muslims...or submitters to your cult and ignorance. We are muslims to god and only god, our submission is only to god.....You'll find us the most submitters to the right and most resistant to your likes, and noone can judge us but our creator....go take a hike and submit some more to what you think the Prophet have told you to do. Leave us freakin alone....you're wasting our times and yours.
========================================
P S:

"And obey Allah and His Messenger , and do not dispute (with each other), lest you lose courage and your strength depart, and be patient. Surely, Allah is with those who are patient." (8:46)

=======================================
I have nothing else to tell you except.

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
=======================================
P S:

Did you read the verse before you post it ? did you read the first line which says SAY: O UNBELIEVERS ???? you are directing this verse at the wrong person..

=====================================

PS...Don't ever PM me....I'll delete it without reading it.

=====================================
P S:

Sure my dear sister, I respect your wish, May Allah guide you and your husband to his right path....Ameen.

 

[Flores]

Re: Re: A moment of truth.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
OH MY GOD !!!! IS THAT A QUESTION A MUSLIM CAN ASK ?? You did not even read the Quran !!! If you read the Quran you will discover that the SUNNAH is ESSTENTIAL INTEGRATED PART OF ISLAM..........here you go, May Allah guides you:

No mention of the word Sunna in the Quran. No mention of Abu Hurraira in the Quran. Why would anyone listen to Abuhurrayra. Bring on Hadith that was documented by the prophet himself and not by another soul and you'll find listeners.

How come The Quran doesn't have the name Abu Hurraira on it? It doesn't even have the name Muhammed on it.

I'm a muslim and believe in nothing that says....narrated by Abu Airdaan.....I follow the Quran and I only believe in things that begin with the "In the Name of God". None of the Hadith begins with the "In the Name of God" and thus they are gossip.

 

[Flores]

Re: Re: A moment of truth.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian

Originally posted by Flores
You are very confused lady, Khadija was the first MUSLIM WOMAN to believe

The question is who is really the confuse one. The one who claims that Khadija was the first muslim women, then say in another thread that Jesus and his mom were muslims.

Are you saying that Islam didn't exist prior to Khadija? Are you saying that all women prior to Khadija were not submitters to god? What exactly are you ever saying?