The Quara'm

Xev..

We've must of been posting simultaneously. Thaks for keeping the debate objective, which is the quran, is it really necessary to start calling names and insults?

I gather that people get emotional about such debates, however I try my best not to emulate such fools that start with the insults, I pretty much try to avoid such people, they don't contribute anything to the debate.

I'm not an expert in Islam, however I try to debate thier holy book, the Koran, Quran, whichever...

Only cause it's claimed to be devine, and not inspired such as the christian bible is suppose to be. Anyhow, I've researched in websites the history of Muhammad, the man, and it seems to me that it's just a religion idealogy started by a mad man.

No doubt that many of the verses are positive and enlightening, however there are the ones of which only speak of destruction and killing of infedels. Islam is a religion of submission, give up logic, and reason and submit your mind to the will of Muhammad, this is what it looks like. Oh!! is Muhammad the way to spell this dood's name?. LOL.
 
Re: Xev..

Originally posted by Godless
Originally posted by Godless

Now for above statment, See that's the problem when you do not know anything about the sequence and context of the text you can make mistakes like that easily. This certian verse is for certain time frame when the muslims were fighting with kaffars in very early days of Islam. The verse relates to wartime and it was referring to the certian war. But you don't know all that since you have never read the Quran and all you did went to website and saw this verse and become all excited that how evil the muslim God is. See the difference in reading the real Book and Copying and pasting the info from websites??.

Ok now let me do some copy and pasting just for you.


The verses are from the Quran but they are poorly translated and quoted out of context to distort its meaning. I will go over them one by one.

What you did is like taking for example George Bush's speech and quote the sentence where he threatens the terrorists with war that will destroy them but deliberately delete the part where he put the blame on them for what they did in NY and DC.

<<"....Kill those who join other gods with Allah wherever you find them; besiege them, seize them, lay in wait for them with every kind of ambush...." (Sura 9:5) >>

From DR.Khalifa or Yusuf Ali translation.

[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

This verse is totally taken out of context. The sura (Chapter) is talking about a cease fire status during four sacred months that God orders everyone to observe to stop any war actions and allow peaceful times to continue in the hope such time will bring better understanding, negotiation towards peace and end to the war. In this verse, 9:5 , God is telling the Muslims, after the cease fire is over and if the enemies are not making peace, (you will have no choice), you will have to fight them. A war is a war, not a joke where people get killed, not massaged.

The verse after this shows one of the greatest principles in modern day prisoners of war treaties.

[9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.


But you missed all that becuase you are not reading from Quran but just copying the info availble from anti Islamic website.

<< "When you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads, until ye have made a great slaughter among them...." (Sura 47:4) >>

The better and more accurate translation, (Dr. Khalifa's translation or YusufAli)

[ 47:4] If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. …..

Again this is an allegorical expression of destroying the enemy. You do not give your enemy a hug during the war when he is aiming at killing you. At this time, for example USA will not be striking the necks, per se , they will use every force possible to kill and destroy the terrorists, the enemies. This is the same principle that most American citizens are calling for now. '


Now do you see how big of a difference can be make for a weak mind that doesn't bother reading the full text but rather read the passages out of context. Bigest example is in chrisitanity

"I and father are one" No one bother to question the context. If you read the context you will know how and why I and father are one.



:D
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Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Xev


As I said:

"Is the Q'ran violent? Du-h! But more so than the Bible? Nope. Indeed, less so, especially considering the early persecution of Muhammed's followers."


A: I have. Three times. (And I risked eternal suffering for this - infidels are not supposed to touch a copy of the Q'ran. HMPH! See all the thanks I get? :p)

B: Not to put too fine a point on it, but as an athiest, I am more likely to become excited by Tyler how nonexistant the Muslim God is.



Actually, I used the Yusaf Ali translation, which can be found here.
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Xev, It is a good thing that you have read the Quran but I was talking to Godless. And no it doen'st says any wher that infidels can't touch it or tthing like that. So feel free.;)
 
Marx..

Thanks for keeping the topic, and refrain from emotional outbreaks by calling me names, other than lazy, well it's not laziness it's lack of time, I've got little time on this computer, and since I do go to secular sites you may be correct these verses are taken out of context.

I'm working on getting a copy of the quran, but I don't think I would read through the whole thing.

1: I'm an atheist, nothing will deter me from that fact.
2: I don't believe the quran is all that is made out to be.
3: Many of the sites I've posted are from former Muslims, who have changed religions or completely abolished religions.

Are these people fools?

I think not, are you a Muslim?

If you are, I'm ok with that, I've got many friends that are not secularists, some are Christians others Catholics and some have no religion but are deists.

However thanks for insight, BTW this is what I was searching for, honest answers, and show some insight of what is being disscussed.
 
Re: Marx..

Originally posted by Godless
Thanks for keeping the topic, and refrain from emotional outbreaks by calling me names, other than lazy, well it's not laziness it's lack of time, I've got little time on this computer, and since I do go to secular sites you may be correct these verses are taken out of context.

I'm working on getting a copy of the quran, but I don't think I would read through the whole thing.

1: I'm an atheist, nothing will deter me from that fact.
2: I don't believe the quran is all that is made out to be.
3: Many of the sites I've posted are from former Muslims, who have changed religions or completely abolished religions.

Are these people fools?

I think not, are you a Muslim?

If you are, I'm ok with that, I've got many friends that are not secularists, some are Christians others Catholics and some have no religion but are deists.

However thanks for insight, BTW this is what I was searching for, honest answers, and show some insight of what is being disscussed.
Click to expand...


Fair enough. I know this thread was started by ISMU but Since I am also muslim and would like to share. I don't expect you to deter from what you believe in and neither I am going to dictate or preach Islam here. I am simply giving you explanations of what I think is wrong impression of Islam here.


**3: Many of the sites I've posted are from former Muslims, who have changed religions or completely abolished religions.**

Actualy no. The fact is many of the sites you have posted are by either Bahai or Qadyanis. Now without going in details, I just like to say that those people didn't abbondon Islam but they never were muslim at the first place. There are quite a few sects in Islam like any other religion and they all liked to be called Muslims. Ismaielis,Qadyanis,Nation of Islam etc etc. Sulman Rushdie is one fine example. Shiatee are another sect bigger then any other sect but way smaller then sunnis. Sunnis are the one who follows Quran and Hadiths. Believe me or not in last 33 years I have come across one person who was converted from Islam and I mean real Islam to christianity and he was 12 when it happened. So I don't know if he had the knowledge or what was the deal back then. But in other hand I have come across 100s of people who have converted from other religions and non religions to Islam, Including me. Now can I say the same for them? Are the Fools?? NO! I don't think so. There must be something that they see or understand, which attracts them. 1.25 billion fools? Possible but that would make more sense if all of them were born muslims. How about 24k-30k (un official) Muslims here in USA every year converts to Islam. Hispanics,Whites,Blacks. Are they all fools? I hope not.

You also did some Mohammad (pbuh) Bashing, Here is the link I like to share with you. And No it is not coming from a Muslim.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/crone.html

Then there is a site that I recomend to every one who like different resources and different views from Non-Muslims and Muslisms about Islam and Quran. Most of them are coming from Non-Muslims. Are they all fool? And only you are genius to understand that there is No God,No Hell, heaven etc. Well if that is what you believe I don't have a problem with that. That's what you believe in and Islam is what I believe in. If you come across negetive info about it. I represent the positve side and possible reasons of confusion.

Islamic History In Detail.

I have got many friends too who doesn't practice any religion and talk about the so called contradictions in Quran, Honestly I enjoy that arguement. I believe it is flawless and I know that I can rebut all of them. But when you put two books aside then you can see the huge difference in language or contradictions, moral problems etc etc. If you have read the Bible then you read the Quran, there is no way that you can say that both books sounds the same. Maybe the theme may sound same but every thing else is different. Anyways looking forward for more questions from you or others. And yes time is important factor. Also you can always find negetive and postive in any religion, I think that some one already have answered that in this thread and "get rid islam" thread.

Later
 
Re: Marx..

Thanks for keeping the topic, and refrain from emotional outbreaks by calling me names, other than lazy, well it's not laziness it's lack of time, I've got little time on this computer, and since I do go to secular sites you may be correct these verses are taken out of context.

I'm working on getting a copy of the quran, but I don't think I would read through the whole thing.

1: I'm an atheist, nothing will deter me from that fact.
2: I don't believe the quran is all that is made out to be.
3: Many of the sites I've posted are from former Muslims, who have changed religions or completely abolished religions.

Are these people fools?

I think not, are you a Muslim?

If you are, I'm ok with that, I've got many friends that are not secularists, some are Christians others Catholics and some have no religion but are deists.

However thanks for insight, BTW this is what I was searching for, honest answers, and show some insight of what is being disscussed.

Hmm, if you aren't willing to read the Qur'an (and actually called it the Quara'm), then you have no right to criticise it. I hope that everybody on this thread will agree to ignore Godless until he reads the Qur'an, or at least agrees not to think bad of it until he reads it to see for himself.

To Markx: Sunni Muslims aren't the only Muslim sect that follows the Qur'an. For one, the Shi'ites ("Shiatees") follow the Qur'an too. They just believe that the caliph must be a descendant of Muhammad, while Sunni Muslims think that it can be any worthy Muslim.
 
Politicaly correct

Quote: GI-GIL "Hmm, if you aren't willing to read the Qur'an (and actually called it the Quara'm), then you have no right to criticise it. I hope that everybody on this thread will agree to ignore Godless until he reads the Qur'an, or at least agrees not to think bad of it until he reads it to see for himself."

And who the hell are you? I can criticize any damn thing I feel like ok!, specially when the quran is an old mythilogical text, written by humans, claimed to be the word of some mythilogical god!!.


Until any Muslim, Christian, Catholic, or whatever mythological religious sect, can prove to the extenct of emperical proof that a god exists, a person can criticise any freaking religion that exists!!.

What I've gather though reading other so call destroy the muslim's posts or Islam is, I've not mentioned anything thing of the sort, I've only criticized their holy quran of which I've been reading and find it just as mystical as any other religious text.

I'm not out against Muslims per say, I'm out against their religious claims, just as I'm out with any of the other religious denominations.

Though I've come to realize that do to recent events in the world, it's kind of "politically incorrect" to criticize the Muslims or Islam, for this is why I've been attacked here by words and criticized as an Idiot!. LOL

This is the only reason, however I was just commenting in the holy quran, that it's not infallible, and that it contains contradictions, and that i'ts just another ancient religious text written for the times, and not for our modern lives.
 
Re: What if, Gandy would have been Palestine

Ghandi. That's an aspirated G. That means you say it with a puff of breath.

Aspiration is what allows us to differentiate between "that stuff" and "that's tough" because we have the 3rd T aspirated in "that's tough"
 
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