The problem with magical thinking, poor education, and poor communication

there also seems to be an element of magical thinking, poor education and poor communication with "rock -n- rolling", "stitch and bitching" and "shake and baking" (aka "cut and running")

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Oh but there is. The U.S. is loaded with magical thinkers whom control military power. For example Bush did not go after Saddam for oil, WMD, or any real poltical / financial reason. He went after Saddam because 'God' told him to.
 
Crunchy Cat said:
Oh but there is. The U.S. is loaded with magical thinkers whom control military power. For example Bush did not go after Saddam for oil, WMD, or any real poltical / financial reason. He went after Saddam because 'God' told him to.
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Your arguments are so tired that I think it is easier simply to refute them with political cartoons

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lightgigantic said:
If you think that Bush went into Iraq purely for religious reasons I think I can argue quite comfortably from the platform of political cartoons
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There's two points of evidence that support that 'God' told Bush to go to war in Iraq. The first (which is unfortunatly unreliable) is the claim from Abbas from some meeting he had with Bush in 2003. The second point of evidence is that Bush is a born again Christian. In other words, he only has 2 choices. Do 'God's will or 'Satans'. If he is doing 'God's will then the war in Iraq is what he thinks 'God' wants.
 
VitalOne said:
Stalin (an atheist) killed more people than Hitler...he tried to get rid of the chuch and religion...he told people the Bible was full of lies and that evolution was true......I guess this means atheism causes violence
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Start a thread about it. I am sure of course there will be a comparison against other atheists to prove the point.
 
Crunchy Cat said:
There's two points of evidence that support that 'God' told Bush to go to war in Iraq. The first (which is unfortunatly unreliable) is the claim from Abbas from some meeting he had with Bush in 2003. The second point of evidence is that Bush is a born again Christian. In other words, he only has 2 choices. Do 'God's will or 'Satans'. If he is doing 'God's will then the war in Iraq is what he thinks 'God' wants.
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What about this?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15228489/

He (Kuo) says some of the nation’s most prominent evangelical leaders were known in the office of presidential political strategist Karl Rove as “the nuts.”

“National Christian leaders received hugs and smiles in person and then were dismissed behind their backs and described as ‘ridiculous,’ ‘out of control,’ and just plain ‘goofy,’” Kuo writes.
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Crunchy Cat said:
There's two points of evidence that support that 'God' told Bush to go to war in Iraq. The first (which is unfortunatly unreliable) is the claim from Abbas from some meeting he had with Bush in 2003. The second point of evidence is that Bush is a born again Christian. In other words, he only has 2 choices. Do 'God's will or 'Satans'. If he is doing 'God's will then the war in Iraq is what he thinks 'God' wants.
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All you have to work with is that bush is a christian - if you examine the nature of religious practioners, it becomes obvious that while there is an ideal (ie 100% surrendered to the will of god) not everyone is on that platform - maybe if you could find a scriptural quote that equates holding political power to purity of religious practice you would have something to proceed with.

Good luck
 
lightgigantic said:
All you have to work with is that bush is a christian - if you examine the nature of religious practioners, it becomes obvious that while there is an ideal (ie 100% surrendered to the will of god) not everyone is on that platform - maybe if you could find a scriptural quote that equates holding political power to purity of religious practice you would have something to proceed with.
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Is anything more needed than Bush being a Christian... unless you think he doesn't believe he's doing 'God's will. Remember, there's only 2 choices for Christians. 'God' will or 'Satan's.

More importantly, look at Christianity's history. Witch burning for example was a result of magical thinking, poor education, and poor communication. Those Muslim burnings in the article I posted are a result of the same. In fact, is there any population ascribing to this criteria that hasn't had (or isn't having) these very same results?

In the U.S. there is more money donated to Churches than schools receive from federal / state / donation / other funding sources combined. This means that people value the psychological satisfaction of religion more than they value truth and are willing to kill and die to ensure it persists. It seems with a dominant population of religious advocates such as yourself, you might be able to use science as a tool to better understand our psychological needs and synthesize and meme-ize a doctrine that doesn't rely on magic. You are literally a cross section of the universe that is sentient and reality has given you a purpose of persisting that sentience. Think about how emotionally powerful a message that could be made. Think about how inspiring it might be to say there's lots of questions that we don't have answers to instead of the old and tired 'God' did it.

A long time ago I entertained the idea that science and religion can never be compatible and one would eventually dominate the other. I find myself nowadays entertaining the idea that reality and magical thinking are at odds with each other, yet magical thinking is something that people do (I suspect its partly an effect of creativity) and it occurs in reality. People create fantasy writings, act in fantasy movies, role play fantasy events, etc. It seems society may need to promote more fantasy role playing, but like all role playing it's just make-believe. I see Stark Trek conventions, Renissance Fairs, Furry conventions, etc. All these people engage in fantasy yet seem to know that it is fantasy.
 
Crunchy Cat said:
Is anything more needed than Bush being a Christian... unless you think he doesn't believe he's doing 'God's will. Remember, there's only 2 choices for Christians. 'God' will or 'Satan's.

More importantly, look at Christianity's history. Witch burning for example was a result of magical thinking, poor education, and poor communication. Those Muslim burnings in the article I posted are a result of the same. In fact, is there any population ascribing to this criteria that hasn't had (or isn't having) these very same results?

In the U.S. there is more money donated to Churches than schools receive from federal / state / donation / other funding sources combined. This means that people value the psychological satisfaction of religion more than they value truth and are willing to kill and die to ensure it persists. It seems with a dominant population of religious advocates such as yourself, you might be able to use science as a tool to better understand our psychological needs and synthesize and meme-ize a doctrine that doesn't rely on magic. You are literally a cross section of the universe that is sentient and reality has given you a purpose of persisting that sentience. Think about how emotionally powerful a message that could be made. Think about how inspiring it might be to say there's lots of questions that we don't have answers to instead of the old and tired 'God' did it.

A long time ago I entertained the idea that science and religion can never be compatible and one would eventually dominate the other. I find myself nowadays entertaining the idea that reality and magical thinking are at odds with each other, yet magical thinking is something that people do (I suspect its partly an effect of creativity) and it occurs in reality. People create fantasy writings, act in fantasy movies, role play fantasy events, etc. It seems society may need to promote more fantasy role playing, but like all role playing it's just make-believe. I see Stark Trek conventions, Renissance Fairs, Furry conventions, etc. All these people engage in fantasy yet seem to know that it is fantasy.
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You still haven't established how god's will and the will of george bush are non different. Nor have you established why religious practioners have the monopoly on errors of judgement.
 
lightgigantic said:
You still haven't established how god's will and the will of george bush are non different.
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Sure I have. Bush is a self-proclaimed born again Christian. To be a Christian you have to accept the claim 'God' exists is true and you have to dedicate your life to doing his will. His Church hasn't kicked him out or taken drastic measures to re-educate him on how to do 'God's will. 'God' hasn't advised him on making an particular error (he would be responsible for informing the public of any mistakes made). Therefore, he is doing 'God's will.

Most importantly, Bush thinks 'God' exists and he is doing his will; therefore, the Iraq war is a result of magical thinking.

lightgigantic said:
Nor have you established why religious practioners have the monopoly on errors of judgement.
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'God's perfect and doing his will can only have non-erroneous results (unless 'God' is infallible). In fact the only way to not do 'God's will is to intentionally not do it.
 
Crunchy Cat

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
You still haven't established how god's will and the will of george bush are non different.
”
Sure I have. Bush is a self-proclaimed born again Christian. To be a Christian you have to accept the claim 'God' exists is true and you have to dedicate your life to doing his will.
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even though I am not a christian I know that any one who is doesn't take such a simplistic view of being a pure advocate of god - its obvious that some persons are more dedicated than others
His Church hasn't kicked him out or taken drastic measures to re-educate him on how to do 'God's will. 'God' hasn't advised him on making an particular error (he would be responsible for informing the public of any mistakes made). Therefore, he is doing 'God's will.

Most importantly, Bush thinks 'God' exists and he is doing his will; therefore, the Iraq war is a result of magical thinking.
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I am sure you can find many christians who are critical of Bushes tactics

but besides that
Is it possible for an ambassador to misrepresent a king?

“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Nor have you established why religious practioners have the monopoly on errors of judgement.
”
'God's perfect and doing his will can only have non-erroneous results (unless 'God' is infallible). In fact the only way to not do 'God's will is to intentionally not do it.
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You just have to establish what god's will is, since to say any fool that tags the word "I'm christian" on the end of their justifications meets the criteria seems inane.
At the very least it would be difficult to find a credible christian practioner who advocates that

I think its acually closer to the case that being an atheist, you are constructing flimsy representations of the social implications of religion as the basis for your working definitions
 
lightgigantic said:
even though I am not a christian I know that any one who is doesn't take such a simplistic view of being a pure advocate of god - its obvious that some persons are more dedicated than others
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Dedicating your life to 'God', a country, and a family shows some pretty high dedication IMP.

lightgigantic said:
I am sure you can find many christians who are critical of Bushes tactics
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It makes you wonder why. In fact there are many different sub-groups of christians whom are critical of each other. Either only one group is choosing to do 'God's will or they are all magical thinkers.

lightgigantic said:
but besides that
Is it possible for an ambassador to misrepresent a king?
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Of course and an ambassador doesn't have access to the king's will. That's form of communication is reserved for a different kind of life form.

lightgigantic said:
You just have to establish what god's will is, since to say any fool that tags the word "I'm christian" on the end of their justifications meets the criteria seems inane.

At the very least it would be difficult to find a credible christian practioner who advocates that
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As a pastor once told me, once you take the opportunity to learn 'God's word and 'believe', his will will always be known just by asking (implying prayer).

lightgigantic said:
I think its acually closer to the case that being an atheist, you are constructing flimsy representations of the social implications of religion as the basis for your working definitions
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There's nothing flimsy about what the opening statement asserts. There is a pattern that magical thinking, poor education, and poor communication have consistently been the common factor of some of the worst human atrocities in history.
 
Crunchy Cat said:
Dedicating your life to 'God', a country, and a family shows some pretty high dedication IMP.



It makes you wonder why. In fact there are many different sub-groups of christians whom are critical of each other. Either only one group is choosing to do 'God's will or they are all magical thinkers.



Of course and an ambassador doesn't have access to the king's will. That's form of communication is reserved for a different kind of life form.



As a pastor once told me, once you take the opportunity to learn 'God's word and 'believe', his will will always be known just by asking (implying prayer).



There's nothing flimsy about what the opening statement asserts. There is a pattern that magical thinking, poor education, and poor communication have consistently been the common factor of some of the worst human atrocities in history.
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I don't know what to say
I guess you are not reading enough political cartoons
;)


10.19.04.bush.iraq.god.jpg
 
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