The problem of theodicy in relation to theistic proselytizing

[lightgigantic]

Sure, such common-sense concerns seem perfectly in place.

But have you ever witnessed how one or a few persons in church/temple, openly and severely criticize someone, a present or absent member or some outsider - and nobody in the congregation says anything in the criticized person's defense, moreover, even adds to the criticism? And such things go on and on?

why talk of churches or whatever ... it happens everywhere... commonly called gossip, and a popular past time of kali yuga

While at the same time, these are the people who are the living representatives of the theology that is said to be the supreme one (and which one therefore aspires to follow or should aspire to follow), so in order to make spiritual progress, one has to subject oneself to them, or make no progress. This is a most troubling predicament.

I don't think its really practical to talk of "subjecting" one's self to another since its part of the problem of conditioned existence that one is completely subjected to one's mind (and hence forms coalitions or oppositions with others on the basis of how they accommodate or antagonize one's false ego)

IOW a conditioned soul cannot subject themselves to anyone

Moreover, how can I trust that you will not turn against me, siding with those who are against me?

as far as conditioned existence goes, how is it possible to trust?
I mean how could I trust that you would not turn against me?

Generally though it all works by commitment ... I mean there are stacks of people I can think of who strike others as generally a bit odd or whatever, but they earn a modicum of respect (or tolerance in the case of really off the wall types ... like heavily drug addicted types) from others simply due to their ability to be reliable in a certain capacity.
If one paints one's self in a corner it might tend to bleed into a tamasic state and make one unreliable (which then might be a legitimate reason for others to distance themselves - kind of like a self absorbed person doesn't have the room to accommodate others so the others naturally oblige)

There are devotees, people, who do in roundabout the same things as you do - they chant the same mantra, worship God by the same name and form, they subscribe to the same theology as you do and so on. And they think very little of me.

Frankly there are bigger issues at stake than what others think of you. Even in mundane pursuits, if we get overwhelmed by what others think of us, we wouldn't get anything done (and in all probability, we spend more time thinking of what they think of us than what they spend thinking of us)

How can I trust that one day, you won't simply side with them, forgetting and foregoing everything you have previously said about philosophy, common sense, and "God's mercy being achievable to the degree that one can recognize and interact with His parts and parcels"?

Regardless whether we think greatly of a person like hot air in a balloon or little of a person like a turd in a thermos, we usually base such values on their deeds, merits actions etc.

So its not really viable to ask the question of others "How can I trust that you won't think little of me"
It is viable however to ask "how can I trust that the actions of my mind and body will be proper" (and thus warrant the natural respect of others)

There's the (common sense) saying "command respect don't demand respect"

 

[wynn]

IOW a conditioned soul cannot subject themselves to anyone

Then why do devotees (of all people!!) demand submission? Why do they get so angry if I and other people don't subject myself to them?

And how am I supposed to deal with their (illogical?) demands and their anger?

I mean how could I trust that you would not turn against me?

You have nothing to lose, nothing at stake with me (and many others).

If one paints one's self in a corner it might tend to bleed into a tamasic state and make one unreliable (which then might be a legitimate reason for others to distance themselves - kind of like a self absorbed person doesn't have the room to accommodate others so the others naturally oblige)

What do you mean by this "painting oneself into a corner"?

Frankly there are bigger issues at stake than what others think of you. Even in mundane pursuits, if we get overwhelmed by what others think of us, we wouldn't get anything done (and in all probability, we spend more time thinking of what they think of us than what they spend thinking of us)

As far as religion/spirituality is concerned, I see it as being entirely about what others think of oneself.
A beginner/outsider is completely at the mercy of everyone who is in any way higher up in the hierarchy.

Theists rule with the (implicit) threat of taking offense if one doesn't please them (and the consequences that offending a theist will have for the offender).

So its not really viable to ask the question of others "How can I trust that you won't think little of me"
It is viable however to ask "how can I trust that the actions of my mind and body will be proper" (and thus warrant the natural respect of others)

There's the (common sense) saying "command respect don't demand respect"

In my experience, generally, all common sense breaks down once dealing with theists. Generally, it is a matter of anxiously walking a tightrope between insanity and offending them.
Frankly, I otherwise rarely see people who take offense so easily.
I feel disgusted and everything but inspired to apply myself to chanting or studying scriptures etc. Why bother with all that, if some stuck-up city damsel will then criticize me into the ground, or a man twice my size yell at me? And the thought of having to spend eternity with them, serving them ...

 

[Lori_7]

signal, on judgement day, it's going to be about you, not them. you're not going to be able to point fingers. one thing i know about god is that he is not interested in discussing others with you, he is interested in doing a work in you despite others, regardless of, or in conjunction with others. but it's all about you. that's why i say that god is the one holding up the mirror to you.

when it comes to god, your fate is in your own hands. no one else is responsible.