The Privileged Universe

Skeptical

Registered Senior Member
One of the ideas of religious people, which is touted as evidence for a creator deity, is the privileged universe.

We know that there are at least six universal constants, which are within a very narrow band of value required for life. If any of these varied only marginally, life could not exist. In fact, the wider universe could not exist in anything like its present form. It is almost as if the universe was 'designed' for life. Clearly, an argument for a creator deity.

The alternative argument is the Anthropic Principle. This suggest that there are, in fact, numerous universes, with a wide range of values for all universal constants. Life and humans live in this universe for the simple reason that it is the only one in which we can live.

What do other people think?
 
I think that no matter what arguments one brings forth to support the existence of God thoes who wish to disbelieve will have a way to reject those arguments, as you demonstrate in the above post.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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One of the ideas of religious people, which is touted as evidence for a creator deity, is the privileged universe.

We know that there are at least six universal constants, which are within a very narrow band of value required for life. If any of these varied only marginally, life could not exist. In fact, the wider universe could not exist in anything like its present form. It is almost as if the universe was 'designed' for life. Clearly, an argument for a creator deity.

The alternative argument is the Anthropic Principle. This suggest that there are, in fact, numerous universes, with a wide range of values for all universal constants. Life and humans live in this universe for the simple reason that it is the only one in which we can live.

What do other people think?
I think its not clear why you draw up the privileged universe and one governed by an anthropic principle as mutually exclusive
 
light

I did not mean to suggest they were mutually exclusive. Just that they were alternative explanations.
 
light

The point is that one explanation requires a deity. The other does not.

I guess it is possible to combine the two, but why should we? We need a reason to do that. Have you such a reason?
 
light

The point is that one explanation requires a deity. The other does not.
what makes you so sure that the anthropic view stands exclusively outside of the requirement for the deity?

I guess it is possible to combine the two, but why should we? We need a reason to do that. Have you such a reason?
Do you have a reason for insisting that the anthropic view mot be combined with the privileged universe view?
(I mean aside from the values one would expect to come with the package of "atheist")
 
To light

I think I would use the term 'multiverse view' rather than 'anthropic view', since the latter carries a lot of possible different meanings.

The multiverse view could include the idea of a creator deity. Sure. But it does not need to. Those who have explored in theory the multiverse view do not normally discuss deities.

The alternative view - that the privileged universe is so because a deity made it so - is a valid way of looking at things. The way I see it, you have a choice. You accept a creator deity, or you accept the idea of the multiverse.

I am agnostic on this. I am not trying to say one is right and one is wrong. Just looking for other people's ideas.
 
Nothing in physics says life is impossible with a change in the fundamental physical constants. Life as we know it wouldn't be possible, because the resulting atomic and molecular structures would be different. I don't know see why theists should get away with using strawman arguments like this so frequently without ridicule.
 
One of the ideas of religious people, which is touted as evidence for a creator deity, is the privileged universe... It is almost as if the universe was 'designed' for life. Clearly, an argument for a creator deity.

I have never understood this - why a well-designed universe indicates a creator deity.

After all, if you're God, why would the universe need to be well-designed? Why would there need to be patterns and order, species and seasons, etc.

Surely a "God" would be capable of inventing a world that had no such order or "design" - that somehow "magically" existed. This, to me, would be more indicative of a creator deity.
 
As an example, taken from http://www.gotquestions.org/anthropic-principle.html

and I quote :

"Consider protons for example. Protons are the positively charged subatomic particles which (along with neutrons) form the nucleus of an atom (around which negatively charged electrons orbit). Whether by providence or fortuitous luck (depending on your perspective) protons just happen to be 1836 times larger than electrons. If they were a little bigger or a little smaller, we would not exist (because atoms could not form the molecules we require). So how did protons end up being 1836 times larger than electrons? Why not 100 times larger or 100,000 times? Why not smaller? Of all the possible variables, how did protons end up being just the right size? Was it luck or contrivance?

Or how is it that protons carry a positive electrical charge equal to that of the negatively charged electron? If protons did not balance electrons and vice versa we would not exist. They are not comparable in size and yet they are perfectly balanced. Did nature just stumble upon such a propitious relationship or did God ordain it for our sakes?"


It is not, as CptBork suggested, that life as we know it could not exist. If things were a little different, even molecules could not exist. Suns and galaxies would not exist. We depend on physical constants to have almost exactly the value they have. And there is no objective reason for why they should have that value, except for either a creator deity or a multiverse.
 
To light

I think I would use the term 'multiverse view' rather than 'anthropic view', since the latter carries a lot of possible different meanings.

The multiverse view could include the idea of a creator deity. Sure. But it does not need to. Those who have explored in theory the multiverse view do not normally discuss deities.

The alternative view - that the privileged universe is so because a deity made it so - is a valid way of looking at things. The way I see it, you have a choice. You accept a creator deity, or you accept the idea of the multiverse.

I am agnostic on this. I am not trying to say one is right and one is wrong. Just looking for other people's ideas.

The reason I'm on your case on this is because the vedic world view incorporates both
 
It is not, as CptBork suggested, that life as we know it could not exist. If things were a little different, even molecules could not exist. Suns and galaxies would not exist.

I think you need to take a closer look at your source:

Whether by providence or fortuitous luck (depending on your perspective) protons just happen to be 1836 times larger than electrons. If they were a little bigger or a little smaller, we would not exist (because atoms could not form the molecules we require).

I don't see where it says suns, galaxies and molecules wouldn't exist. The molecules we require as human beings wouldn't exist, because you'd have a completely different periodic table, different atomic structures, etc. For example, here in our own universe, you can take an atom and replace the orbiting electrons with muons, and the resulting structure will be as stable as the muon itself- this has been done in nuclear labs for decades. Hence, by analogy, if you tweaked the Standard Model so the electron mass was hundreds of times bigger, but the electron were still the lightest lepton (hence rendering it mathematically stable), you could still form atomic structures, and molecules from these atoms.

We depend on physical constants to have almost exactly the value they have. And there is no objective reason for why they should have that value, except for either a creator deity or a multiverse.

I don't think you have any rational grounds for throwing my alternative out, especially given the above. It could just as easily be that, were the physical constants of our universe to turn out differently, other lifeforms based on other types of elements and atomic formations would come into existence and ask the same question, "why'd it turn out this way". Just like a lottery winner can ask "why me?" even though in reality there's nothing special about the circumstances behind their win.

The anthropic principle doesn't require any statements about multiverses and such. In its most basic version, it says what I've said- if the universe were a tiny bit different, we wouldn't be here to ask about it. It doesn't state in any way whatsoever that other beings wouldn't be there in our place to ask the same questions.
 
Bork

I am slightly embarrassed here, in that I have lost my original reference. Such factors as the ratio between the power of the em force and gravity are vital in determining the structure of the universe, and life of any kind, even that radically different to ours, would be impossible in a universe with those constants only slightly varying.

Wiki puts it ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_constant#Anthropic_principle )

as

"Some physicists have explored the notion that if the dimensionless physical constants had sufficiently different values, our universe would be so radically different that intelligent life would probably not have emerged, and that our universe therefore seems to be fine-tuned for intelligent life. The anthropic principle states a logical truism: the fact of our existence as intelligent beings who can measure physical constants requires those constants to be such that beings like us can exist. There are a variety of interpretations of the apparent fine-tuning, including a divine creator (the apparent fine-tuning is actual and intentional), or that ours is one universe of many in a multiverse (e.g. the Many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics), or even that a universe without the capacity for conscious beings cannot exist."
 
Bork

I am slightly embarrassed here, in that I have lost my original reference.

At this point, I wanted to mention that upon checking the source you supplied above, I found that the article in turn referenced the following book: Intelligent Design 101: Leading Experts Explain the Key Issues Edited by H. Wayne House. This is the only reference the article provides, and it should be clear at this point that the ID movement does not represent any sort of mainstream scientific consensus.

Such factors as the ratio between the power of the em force and gravity are vital in determining the structure of the universe, and life of any kind, even that radically different to ours, would be impossible in a universe with those constants only slightly varying.

That's an awfully strong assertion to make about our physical understanding of the universe, and I doubt you have any facts or citations from mainstream physics to substantiate it. I present to you the following experimentally verified counterexample: exotic atoms. The muonic atom I mentioned above is one example of such a system. Let no one be confused, this has nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of "exotic matter" hypothesized for warp drives and such. Exotic atoms are bound states of matter possessing similar properties to the atoms we commonly deal with, but they are not composed strictly from protons, neutrons and electrons. Hence the masses, electroweak and colour charges are free to vary without destroying the potential for exotic chemistry. I have also personally witnessed Prof. Sean Carroll, the author of the main textbook I used for GR, discussing the potential for studies of things such as "dark chemistry" based on the hypothetical ways in which dark matter is expected to interact.

Now in practice, the reason we don't see exotic atoms outside of finely-tuned lab conditions is because the particles that compose them don't last very long. On the other hand, if you tweaked the standard model so that the electron were hundreds of times more massive but still the lightest lepton, the atoms it helps form would behave just like these exotic atoms, but it would also be stable, and hence these atoms would live long enough to form molecules and chemicals. Meanwhile, for the universe we actually live in, dark matter is thought to be as stable as regular matter and hence makes a great candidate for a new form of previously unexplored chemistry.

Wiki puts it ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_constant#Anthropic_principle )

as

"Some physicists have explored the notion that if the dimensionless physical constants had sufficiently different values, our universe would be so radically different that intelligent life would probably not have emerged, and that our universe therefore seems to be fine-tuned for intelligent life.

Given a sentence with so many conditional qualifiers, how can you draw any decisive conclusions?

(from same article) "The anthropic principle states a logical truism: the fact of our existence as intelligent beings who can measure physical constants requires those constants to be such that beings like us can exist."

Indeed. I believe you misinterpret the meaning of "beings like us" to imply all intelligent creatures of any kind. The truth is, no one has the computing power to reach such a conclusion as yours with any sort of reliability. The question as to what the universe would look like with different physical constants is still completely up in the air. The idea of narrowing this down to a choice between multiverses and Godverses is a red herring put forth by the likes of IDers in order to stifle the debate and back their opponents into a corner.
 
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My thoughts? Anthropics are a bitch. And a slippery slope.

Quite right.

I've always been fascinated by how some people, and some groups, find the Anthropic Principle to be problematic. It's not problematic at all; of course the Universe appears to us to be amenable to us, if it weren't so, there would be neither an us, nor an appearance.

Moreover, given the inability to somehow 'evade' our perceptive position, the notion is moot.
 
Here is another reference to the problem of fine tuned physical constants.

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/anthro_philo.pdf

I quote :

"In 1919, Weyl expressed his puzzlement that the ratio of the electromagnetic force to
the gravitational force between two electrons is such a huge number, N1 = 1039.1 He
wondered why this should be the case, expressing his intuition that pure numbers like
p appearing in the description of physical properties should occur within a few orders of
magnitude of unity. Unity, or zero, you can expect "naturally." But why 1039? Why not
1057 or 10-123? Some principle must select out 1039.
In 1937, Dirac discovered that N1 is the same order of magnitude as another pure
number N2 that gives the ratio of a typical stellar lifetime to the time for light to
traverse the radius of a proton.2 If one number being large is unlikely, how much more
unlikely is for another to come along with about the same value?
In 1961, Dicke pointed out that N2 is necessarily large in order that the lifetime of
typical stars be sufficient to generate heavy chemical elements such as carbon.
Furthermore, he showed that N1 must be of the same order of N2 for our universe to
have elements heavier than lithium.3"


Also quoted from that reference

"The element-synthesizing processes in stars depend sensitively on the properties
and abundances of deuterium (heavy hydrogen) and helium produced in the early
universe. Deuterium would not exist if the difference between the masses of a neutron
and a proton were just slightly displaced from its actual value. The relative abundances
of hydrogen and helium also depended strongly on this parameter. They also required
a balance of the relative strengths of gravity and the weak interaction, the force
responsible for nuclear beta decay. A slightly stronger weak force and the universe
would be 100 percent hydrogen. In that case, all the neutrons in the early universe will
have decayed leaving none around to be saved in helium nuclei for later use in the
element-building processes in stars. A slightly weaker weak force and few neutrons
would have decayed, leaving about the same numbers of protons and neutrons. In that
case, all the protons would have been bound up in helium nuclei, with two protons and
two neutrons in each. This would have lead to a universe that was 100 percent helium,
with no hydrogen to fuel the fusion processes in stars. Neither of these extremes would
have allowed for the existence of stars and life, as we know it, based on carbon
chemistry."


There is a whole lot more, but I hope these two quotes will make clear the simple fact that our universe in its present form could not exist if any of a number of physical constants were just a little bit different. The difference would be large enough to mean we do not even have larger atoms, or stars.
 
Here is another reference to the problem of fine tuned physical constants.

http://www.talkreason.org/articles/anthro_philo.pdf

There is a whole lot more, but I hope these two quotes will make clear the simple fact that our universe in its present form could not exist if any of a number of physical constants were just a little bit different. The difference would be large enough to mean we do not even have larger atoms, or stars.

The abstract of the article you cite says something very different. The third and fourth sentences say the following:

No basis exists for assuming that a random universe would not have some kind of life.
Calculations of the properties of universes having different physical constants than ours
indicate that long-lived stars are not unusual, and thus most universes should have time
for complex systems of some type to evolve.

Here's a quote from the same article's conclusion:

Theists argue that the universe seems to have been specifically designed so that
intelligent life would form. Some have gone so far as to claim that this is already proved
by the existence of the anthropic coincidences. The theist claim translates into a modern
version of the ancient argument from design for the existence of God. However, the
new version is as deeply flawed as its predecessors, making many unjustified
assumptions and not being required by existing knowledge. One gross and fatal
assumption is that only one kind of life, ours, is possible in any configuration of possible
universes.

We have examined possible natural explanations for the anthropic coincidences.
A wide variation of constants of physics has been shown to lead to universes that are
long-lived enough for complex matter to evolve, though human life would certainly not
exist in such universes.

So again I think you need to check your sources more thoroughly. The universe would indeed look like a very different place with different physical constants, but nothing says sophisticated variations on chemistry wouldn't be possible, thus life in such universes is by no means whatsoever ruled out. Also I'd appreciate it if you could address my exotic atom counterexample, since you seem so convinced of what you're asserting here.
 
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Bork

I prefer to stay within known science. Your 'exotic atom' may or may not have merit. As things are right now, it is pure speculation.

My reference made it clear that minor changes in physical constants would mean no stars. Also no atoms larger than Helium. If we refrain from entering the world of science fiction speculation, this means no life.

An item of possible interest is the conclusion from super-string theory of many universes. Now, I am sceptical of super-string theory, which has yet to be demonstrated empirically, meaning it is still in the field of speculation and hypothesis. However, even knowing that it is undemonstrated, some of the conclusions are interesting. One such conclusion is that there are E500 universes, each of which will have different physical constants to the others, and a massively varied nature, across the E500 different types.

At the end of all this, we are still left with the fact that our universe has no fewer than six physical constants that, if veried only slightly, would mean no stars, galaxies or life.

We can interpret this as the privileged universe. The explanation for this is either a creator deity or the multiverse.
 
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