The Paul File

No Joe, PAs clearly do NOT have the same level of training as an MD in any country.

It takes but a BA and 2 years to become a PA.

Show me any major western country that awards a MD based on such limited training (so I can avoid getting sick in that country)

In comparison, Canada is essentially the same as the US,

No Arthur, only in your dreams. That simply is not true. You are making stuff up again.

Canada, a medical school is a faculty or school of a university that offers a three- or four-year Doctor of Medicine (M.D. or M.D.C.M.) degree. Generally, medical students begin their studies after receiving a bachelor's degree - Wikipedia.

Most medical schools outside The United States are 5 or six year programs. Nurse practioners and physicians assistants have at least as much training.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_school#Canada

In the UK an undergraduate medical degree takes either 5 or 6 years depending on if you do an optional intercalated year. Once you have finished your undergraduate degree you become a doctor with provisional GMC registration. To gain full GMC registration you need to work for two years in the NHS as a foundation doctor (F1 formally known as pre-registation house officer PRHO and F2 formally know as senior house officer SHO). After that timescales and career paths vary depending on what speciality you wish to go into.

To become a GP you need to work as a GP ST (General Practice Specialist Trainee) that takes about an additional 3 years.

So that's 10 years in Canada to become a GP, longer for a specialty like Pediatrics.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen...=37ba1795-c7de-4882-9e4c-ec0ad3068352&k=44390

The UK is the same:

So that's 10 years to become a GP in the UK.

Seems pretty much the same for Australia:

http://sufface.net/medicine/med4me.shtml

You are throwing up chaff again Arthur.

As I said and per my references getting an MD in most other industrial countries is a six year process - the same educational requirement for nurse practioners and physicians assistants.

The unpleasant bottom line for you here, is that we in the US have nurse practioners and physicians assistants acting as physicians (performing the same tasks as physicians) and billing as physicans but cannot operate as independent agents and compete with physicians.
 
I have taught at Medical School and it is, IMO, a racket. The places are reduced to keep the steady stream of Undergraduates paying ridiculous tuition and majoring in Biology when most of them will have memorized a bunch of useless (for them) information and not end up working in Medicine.

I can not tell you the number of complete idiots who have been accepted because their parents are willing to pay full fees OR just plain dumb luck - while at the same time very competent students are passed by in the 1000s.

Even last year there was a complaint too many doctors are being trained - which is going to cause a bubble, which will hurt undergraduate numbers if the wage goes too low in 2023. The specialist placements are just as ridiculous. If not more so.

I have mentioned before about the spinal surgeon who chooses patients purely on the amount he can make (he drives a convertable Ferrari). If the amount is not above the line, he simply says he`s not competent enough to do the work and passes it to the other surgeons in the area who are and will not turn away a patient. THEY are old school. HE is new school. That`s in Australia where the State has it`s idiotic hands all over the place. Hell, there was medical school who was going to be shut down just last month (but I`m sure it won`t happen) for how poorly they train medical students. and THAT says something - Australia is one of the worse training programs in the world. Students from India, even Malaysia, circles around Australian students.

As someone who has worked in the field, I know all about the scam that is medicine. It`d take decades to straighten out this mess - which will never happen. There`s too much money and influence and vested interest to ever fix the system. It`ll just limp along crappily with the general public never the wiser. Along with everything.

Ever hear that saying: "The first generation builds the business, the second makes it a success, and the third wrecks it” WE are that third generation ... .... ..... .... only I`d argue the second generation made it a success ONLY for themselves.
 
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No Arthur, only in your dreams. That simply is not true. You are making stuff up again.

Canada, a medical school is a faculty or school of a university that offers a three- or four-year Doctor of Medicine (M.D. or M.D.C.M.) degree. Generally, medical students begin their studies after receiving a bachelor's degree - Wikipedia.

Most medical schools outside The United States are 5 or six year programs. Nurse practitioners and physicians assistants have at least as much training.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_school#Canada

BS Joe.

The first 4 years of training are the 4 year Pre-Med course leading to the BS degree. So no one becomes a practicing GP in any major country with just 1 or 2 additional years of training after they get their BS degree.


What you left out in the Canadian program is that though they have the MD degree in 3 or 4 years added onto their 4 year BS Pre-Med degree, they THEN enter their Residency Training and CAN'T set up practice till they complete that as well.


Upon completion of the final year of medical school, students are awarded the degree of M.D. Students then begin training in the residency program designated to them by CaRMS. Part 2 of the MCCQE, an Objective Structured Clinical Examination, is taken following completion of twelve months of residency training. After both parts of the MCCQE are successfully completed, the resident becomes a Licentiate of the Medical Council of Canada. However, in order to practice independently, the resident must complete the residency program and take a board examination pertinent to his or her intended scope of practice. In the final year of residency training, residents take an exam administered by either the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada or the College of Family Physicians of Canada, depending on whether they are training for specialty or family practice.

Note the "in the final year of residency training", depending on the specialty it is at least 2 years long.

So in Canada to become a GP (which is what we are discussing) it takes:

4 years of to get a BS degree in Pre-Med (you have to sit for the MCATs, so you not only have to get this degree you have to do very well in it)

3 to 4 years of Medical School. (The medical school curriculum typically lasts four years. The first two are “pre-clinical,” while the third and fourth provide an opportunity to rotate through the core medical specialties — the “clerkship” — and try different fields.)

2+ years of Residency

So the TYPICAL length of time is 10 years to a GP in Canada the SAME as the US, though some stellar performers might make it in 9 years).

But the requirements to be a Physician Assistant are:

A Bachelor of ARTS degree, with NO requirement for Pre-Med.
No having to pass an MCAT
A 2 year course of study to become a PA.

Clearly NOT anywhere near the same as becoming a GP, which is why they can only practice in a supervised environment and for minor issues at that.

A Nurse Practitioner on the other hand, does have much more training than a PA, which is why they can work without a doctor's supervision:

4 year BSN (which has much of the same content that the Pre-Med degree that a doctor would take, the difference would be in much of the clinical training)

2 years "Residency", the NP schools require that candidates have 2 years working on the Med-Surg floors before entering, this again is not the same as the Intern/Resident program that doctors go through, but does gain them a lot of hand's on experience.

2 year Nurse Practitioner course.
 
BS Joe.

The first 4 years of training are the 4 year Pre-Med course leading to the BS degree. So no one becomes a practicing GP in any major country with just 1 or 2 additional years of training after they get their BS degree.


What you left out in the Canadian program is that though they have the MD degree in 3 or 4 years added onto their 4 year BS Pre-Med degree, they THEN enter their Residency Training and CAN'T set up practice till they complete that as well.


Note the "in the final year of residency training", depending on the specialty it is at least 2 years long.

So in Canada to become a GP (which is what we are discussing) it takes:

4 years of to get a BS degree in Pre-Med (you have to sit for the MCATs, so you not only have to get this degree you have to do very well in it)

3 to 4 years of Medical School. (The medical school curriculum typically lasts four years. The first two are “pre-clinical,” while the third and fourth provide an opportunity to rotate through the core medical specialties — the “clerkship” — and try different fields.)

2+ years of Residency

So the TYPICAL length of time is 10 years to a GP in Canada the SAME as the US, though some stellar performers might make it in 9 years).

But the requirements to be a Physician Assistant are:

A Bachelor of ARTS degree, with NO requirement for Pre-Med.
No having to pass an MCAT
A 2 year course of study to become a PA.

Clearly NOT anywhere near the same as becoming a GP, which is why they can only practice in a supervised environment and for minor issues at that.

A Nurse Practitioner on the other hand, does have much more training than a PA, which is why they can work without a doctor's supervision:

4 year BSN (which has much of the same content that the Pre-Med degree that a doctor would take, the difference would be in much of the clinical training)

2 years "Residency", the NP schools require that candidates have 2 years working on the Med-Surg floors before entering, this again is not the same as the Intern/Resident program that doctors go through, but does gain them a lot of hand's on experience.

2 year Nurse Practitioner course.

Yeah, reality is a real bummer for your Arthur. :) I have proven my case., so throw up the chaff and add non relevant and misleading material to your case as you always do (e.g. add residencies). Nurse practioners and physicians assistants can perform do what physicians do but they cannot compete with physicians for patients.
 
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Yeah, but the difference Joe is I back my version of reality with actual FACTS.

A US and Canadian Dr go through essentially the same type and duration of training, to claim otherwise is silly given the links provided.

Indeed, the U.S. Department of Education through the Licensing Commission on Medical Education (LCME) has accredited all Canadian medical schools.

This distinction is important since it exempts Canadians from having to complete residencies in the U.S.

Second, in over 40 U.S. states, Canadian-licensed physicians are exempted from having to take U.S. examinations in order to obtain medical licenses. These states consider the Licentiate Medical Certificate of Canada (LMCC) examination to be equivalent to the FLEX.

So what this means is that the US pretty much views Canadian Drs to be the equiv of US doctors, because they have had pretty much the exact same training as US Drs.

http://shusterman.com/physiciansimmigrationguide.html

So no Joe, you haven't yet come up with any Western country where you can become a GP type doctor in just 5 or 6 years of education and training, but keep looking.
 
Yeah, but the difference Joe is I back my version of reality with actual FACTS.

A US and Canadian Dr go through essentially the same type and duration of training, to claim otherwise is silly given the links provided.

Indeed, the U.S. Department of Education through the Licensing Commission on Medical Education (LCME) has accredited all Canadian medical schools.

This distinction is important since it exempts Canadians from having to complete residencies in the U.S.

Second, in over 40 U.S. states, Canadian-licensed physicians are exempted from having to take U.S. examinations in order to obtain medical licenses. These states consider the Licentiate Medical Certificate of Canada (LMCC) examination to be equivalent to the FLEX.

So what this means is that the US pretty much views Canadian Drs to be the equiv of US doctors, because they have had pretty much the exact same training as US Drs.

http://shusterman.com/physiciansimmigrationguide.html

So no Joe, you haven't yet come up with any Western country where you can become a GP type doctor in just 5 or 6 years of education and training, but keep looking.

LOL, only in your dreams Arthur. You just like to ignore reality. I suggest you go back and maybe read.
 
I take it you are challenged by simple Math Joe?

I say Canada is essentially the same as the US and takes 10 years while
you claim it's just 5 or 6 years.

joepistole said:
Most medical schools outside The United States are 5 or six year programs. Nurse practioners and physicians assistants have at least as much training.

So we look at what it takes in Canada to become a GP:

4 years for a BS degree in Pre-Med (And like the US, you have to sit for the MCATs, so you not only do you have to get this 4 year Pre-Med degree but you have to do very well in it to get a high enough score on your MCATs to even get into Medical School)

Now you take

3 to 4 years of Medical School. (The medical school curriculum typically lasts four years. The first two are “pre-clinical,” while the third and fourth provide an opportunity to rotate through the core medical specialties — the “clerkship” — and try different fields.)

Then you have to complete

2+ years of Residency

So 4 + 4 + 2 = 10 years is the typical length of time to become a GP in Canada, which is the SAME as the US

At 5 or 6 years in Canada you would still be in Medical School and a year or two away from starting your 2+ year residency.
 
I take it you are challenged by simple Math Joe?

I say Canada is essentially the same as the US and takes 10 years while
you claim it's just 5 or 6 years.

So we look at what it takes in Canada to become a GP:

4 years for a BS degree in Pre-Med (And like the US, you have to sit for the MCATs, so you not only do you have to get this 4 year Pre-Med degree but you have to do very well in it to get a high enough score on your MCATs to even get into Medical School)

Now you take

3 to 4 years of Medical School. (The medical school curriculum typically lasts four years. The first two are “pre-clinical,” while the third and fourth provide an opportunity to rotate through the core medical specialties — the “clerkship” — and try different fields.)

Then you have to complete

2+ years of Residency

So 4 + 4 + 2 = 10 years is the typical length of time to become a GP in Canada, which is the SAME as the US

At 5 or 6 years in Canada you would still be in Medical School and a year or two away from starting your 2+ year residency.


Repeating you lies and nonsense ad nauseum and engaging in ad hominem when all else fails will not make them true Arthur.

Here is the stark reality for which you have steadfastly refused to even acknowledge – preferring instead obfuscate with half truths and complete falsehoods.

In the US we have nurse practitioners and physicians assistants who are well trained and doing the traditional work of physicians who must work for institutions or physicians and cannot compete with physicians in the market place for patients. And those physicians are billing the services of these professionals in many cases at physician rates and paying less than physician wages to these individuals.Arthur.
 
Repeating you lies and nonsense ad nauseum and engaging in ad hominem when all else fails will not make them true Arthur.

No Joe, it is you who are clearly wrong, to become a GP takes FAR FAR more training than a Physician Assistant, which is why they can't work independently.
Nurse Practitioners, like I pointed out, go through 6 years of training along with 2 years of clinical work and thus are closer to the 8 years of training and 2 years of clinical work that Doctors go through (though the Internship/Residency of a DR is MUCH more intense of a training program than just working in Med/Surg for 2 years as an RN), so:

joepistole said:
Most medical schools outside The United States are 5 or six year programs. Nurse practioners and physicians assistants have at least as much training.

IS FALSE
 
I have proven my case., so throw up the chaff and add non relevant and misleading material to your case as you always do (e.g. add residencies).

FALSE Joe.

The Residency requirement is indeed relevant.

Residency program (graduate medical education): Through a national matching program, newly graduated MDs enter into a residency program that is three to seven years or more of professional training under the supervision of senior physician educators. The length of residency training varies depending on the medical specialty chosen: family practice, internal medicine, and pediatrics, for example, require 3 years of training; general surgery requires 5 years.

Residency is NOT optional Joe, you can't practice as a Medical Doctor until after you have completed this additional professional training.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_can_you_do_with_an_MD_without_doing_a_residency

Which just shows it is you who are trying to ignore a big part of what it takes to become a Medical Doctor. Indeed, I've been saying it's 2 years, but it looks like its actually 3 years for a GP.

And as the links showed, Canada, the UK and Australia all have the same type of Residency training after completing Medical School to become what we call a GP or Medical Doctor.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/education-careers/becoming-physician.page
 
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Ron Paul Holds Up Silver Ounce and Tells Bernanke He's Killing the Dollar 2/29/12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sFLcLD1vPM

Keiser Report: Return of the Silver Liberation Army

In this episode, Max Keiser and co-host, Stacy Herbert, discuss the return of the Silver Liberation Army as JP Morgan's Blythe Masters claims the bank does not manipulate silver prices. They also discuss JP Morgan's 'London whale' breaking the credit default swap (CDS) index market with massive prop position. In the second half of the show Max talks to author, Pierre Jovanovic, about Blythe Masters role at JP Morgan and the similarities between the world today and France of the 18th century on the eve of revolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BdpL_EATyc
 
FALSE Joe.

The Residency requirement is indeed relevant.

Residency is NOT optional Joe, you can't practice as a Medical Doctor until after you have completed this additional professional training.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_can_you_do_with_an_MD_without_doing_a_residency

No this is you again either exhibiting fuzzy logic or deliberately obfuscating.

A medical residency is a post medical graduate specialization. It is optional. It is not required for a medical degree or to practice medicine. This is you talking about things of which you know nothing and/or throwing up more chaff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine)

Which just shows it is you who are trying to ignore a big part of what it takes to become a Medical Doctor. Indeed, I've been saying it's 2 years, but it looks like its actually 3 years for a GP.

And as the links showed, Canada, the UK and Australia all have the same type of Residency training after completing Medical School to become what we call a GP or Medical Doctor.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/education-careers/becoming-physician.page[/QUOTE]

Do you even read your references or are your just confused? Residencies are post medical graduate specializations and vary in length by specialization – totally not relevant to this conversation.

You have repeatedly avoided the key issues in this conversation. We in the US have two professions that are well trained and function as physicians, doing the same work physicians do, but those professions cannot compete with physicians by law.
 
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No Joe, a RESIDENCY is NOT optional and it is required in every state to get a licence to practice Medicine.

Now you are just being silly.

If this difficult and long process wasn't required to practice medicine, then doctors would obviously skip it.

But they can't

Residency” is a 3-6 year training program that med students and International Medical Graduates must complete at a postgraduate hospital.

http://www.usmle-courses.eu/residency.htm
 
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No Joe, a RESIDENCY is NOT optional and it is required in every state to get a licence to practice Medicine.

Now you are just being silly.

If this difficult and long process wasn't required to practice medicine, then doctors would obviously skip it.

But they can't

http://www.usmle-courses.eu/residency.htm

LOL, more obfuscation. USMLE is for foriegn medical graduates by the way. :) And a residency is a post medical school specialization per your previous references.
 
LOL, more obfuscation. USMLE is for foriegn medical graduates by the way. :) And a residency is a post medical school specialization per your previous references.

No Joe, the USMLE is NOT just for foriegn medical gradutates.

http://www.usmle.org/

The United States Medical Licensure Exams (USMLE) are essential to gain a U.S medical residency position and ultimately become a licensed doctor in the U.S.

A residency is a post medical school requirement, but to get your MD License to practice, it is required in EVERY State in the US.
 
No Joe, the USMLE is NOT just for foriegn medical gradutates.

http://www.usmle.org/

The United States Medical Licensure Exams (USMLE) are essential to gain a U.S medical residency position and ultimately become a licensed doctor in the U.S.

A residency is a post medical school requirement, but to get your MD License to practice, it is required in EVERY State in the US.

\ Repeating yourself ad nauseum will not change reality Arthur.
 
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