The Passion

[spidergoat]

I finally saw it, do Christians really believe this crap?
That Pilot only executed Jesus reluctantly, after the Jewish elders grab Jesus in a middle of the night soviet style police raid? That he offers up a criminal instead, and the Jewish mob chooses Jesus for death? Come on, Pilot was so brutal, he was recalled to Rome soon after this incident, and the Caesars weren't exactly known for their kindness.

And who wrote the bible again? Oh, yeah, the Romans.

 

[Woody]

Yep,

We christians really believe Jesus died for our sins on the cross. He was crucified in place of an insurrectionist named Barabbas. Jesus was betrayed by a kiss from Judas for 30 pieces of silver in the garden of Gethseme and then he was handed over to the Jewish Pharisees and was convicted of blasphemy because he said God was his father. After he died his tomb was sealed with a Roman legion of soldiers and Jesus rose again along with many of the dead people buried in Jerusalem, and they were witnessed by thousands of people, as well as the Gospel writers, of whom Luke is known to be the actual author of the book of Luke, as given by his introduction in the book of Luke.

Yep, I believe it and I bet my life on it.

 

[Adstar]

That movie was a twist. It was a mans view of the passion. I have read the book and it does not follow the book.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Raithere]

It was freaking brilliant.

How else can you explain millions of Christians lining up to view what is essentially a snuff film?

It exposes the raw brutality and sadism of their philosophy. Heck, they even have "The Passion of the Christ" nails you can buy and wear as jewelry. I guess in case you bump into some other deity you'd like to hammer to a cross.

http://www.sharethepassionofthechrist.com/jewelry.asp

~Raithere

 

[Woody]

Raither: It exposes the raw brutality and sadism of their philosophy.

Woody: It exposes what God is willing to go through to keep you out of hell. But He can't do it alone, now the choice is yours. He made His.

 

[heart]

Raither: It exposes the raw brutality and sadism of their philosophy.

Woody: It exposes what God is willing to go through to keep you out of hell. But He can't do it alone, now the choice is yours. He made His.

I'd like to add, a hell which the biblical god created.

 

[Raithere]

It exposes what God is willing to go through to keep you out of hell. But He can't do it alone, now the choice is yours. He made His.

Why can't God do it alone? Why would he have to "go through" anything?
Isn't he omnipotent? Isn't he the one that made up the rules in the first place?

~Raithere

 

[spidergoat]

I'm an admirer of Jesus, and I think his brutal execution by the Romans, more precisely, Jesus' reaction to the situation was an example of his character, an example that others could follow even, but not as they say a transcendental "payment" for the sin of others.

Anyway, the movie depicts Pilot as a somewhat compassionate person, reluctantly serving out the wishes of the Jewish elders, who are portrayed as even more bloodthirsty and brutal than he was. What nonsense.

Another point is that if people really followed Jesus, there would be no war. Jesus didn't battle it out with the Romans, he accepted their brutality as both their personal flaw, and a manifestation of God. Their evil was God's will. All "evil" is God's will. Therefore, for example, an attack like 9/11 was also an act of God, and it should be accepted with grace and without violence.

 

[lezardo]

Originally Posted by Woody
...and they were witnessed by thousands of people, as well as the Gospel writers, of whom Luke is known to be the actual author of the book of Luke, as given by his introduction in the book of Luke.

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. Anyone who has studied theology will tell you that the four gospels were written after Jesus' death. And all indications are that the author 'Luke' heavily plagiarized Mark's account.

 

[spidergoat]

...And the whole ending felt tacked on.

There was almost no mention of Jesus' teachings, and that's a good representation of Christians today. It's a death cult with no interest in the finer points of philosophy, just a visceral reaction to a loved one dying.

 

[okinrus]

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true. Anyone who has studied theology will tell you that the four gospels were written after Jesus' death. And all indications are that the author 'Luke' heavily plagiarized Mark's account.

Luke tells the reader that he's drawing upon different sources--not only personal account. Because no standards existed documenting sources, Luke should cannot really be accused of plagiarizing here.

I finally saw it, do Christians really believe this crap?
That Pilot only executed Jesus reluctantly, after the Jewish elders grab Jesus in a middle of the night soviet style police raid? That he offers up a criminal instead, and the Jewish mob chooses Jesus for death? Come on, Pilot was so brutal, he was recalled to Rome soon after this incident, and the Caesars weren't exactly known for their kindness.

Well, Pontius Pilate could seem quite cruel just by treating rebels and criminals harshly. Jesus was neither, which might explain Pilate's hesitation.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

After he died his tomb was sealed with a Roman legion of soldiers

not quite a legion or Roman, but a guard of soldiers (number unknown)

and Jesus rose again along with many of the dead people buried in Jerusalem, and they were witnessed by thousands of people, as well as the Gospel writers, of whom Luke is known to be the actual author of the book of Luke, as given by his introduction in the book of Luke. :-D

all the first Christians were jewish, thousands who believed, they remembered all that they had seen, heard, understood, & they went against what they knew as jewish tradition & became Chrisitians. there were appearently 2 scatterings of chrisitans;
1) when the jewish authorities jailed & presecuted many in ACTS &
2) when jews were scattered after the Jewish revolt of 70-74 AD (Masada was the last battlefield).

Yep, I believe it and I bet my life on it.

me too

 

[WildBlueYonder]

That movie was a twist. It was a mans view of the passion. I have read the book and it does not follow the book.

twist? you mean not quite accurate?
the book? you mean t he Bible, my understanding of what Mel did was to take several famous artworks & use those as the frame of referance (they're like snapshots), the Pieta, abstract, etc...

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hallelujah

 

[WildBlueYonder]

It was freaking brilliant.
How else can you explain millions of Christians lining up to view what is essentially a snuff film?

it was art, drama, history, & a view of what was paid as our ransom
you just can see it, because you are biased against chrisitianity, I was that way to, yep, you can read the Bible, but not understand it, since you only see surface appearances, words only.
no wonder, no awe, no curiousity?
Raithere, what was before the Big Bang? why does E=MC2? & what made Mass move at the C2? read Lee Stobel's "Case for the Creator", if you want to know, or live in darknesss

It exposes the raw brutality and sadism of their philosophy.

you have it backwards, if you knew the story or read the book, you would know that the people doing the raw brutality were Romans, they of the gladiators, lions & christians fame

Heck, they even have "The Passion of the Christ" nails you can buy and wear as jewelry.

thats just plain comercialism, you got me there,
of course you don't wear Led Zepelin T-shirts or Lance Armstrong yellow bands, because you don't support any crass comercialism, right?

I guess in case you bump into some other deity you'd like to hammer to a cross.
~Raithere

first of all, we're not Romans buddy, so no more crucifictions & since there's no other deities; Buddha, Allah & Ahura Mazda have nothing to fear, except maybe a hammer to break the statutes

 

[Raithere]

you can read the Bible, but not understand it, since you only see surface appearances, words only.

Hardly.

no wonder, no awe, no curiousity?

Always.

what was before the Big Bang?

What's South of the South Pole?

why does E=MC2?

Because energy and mass are the same thing.

what made Mass move at the C2?

Energy always moves at the speed of light in a vacuum.

read Lee Stobel's "Case for the Creator", if you want to know, or live in darknesss

Why? I already understand the argument from irreducible complexity. It's based largely upon false logic and assumption.

you have it backwards, if you knew the story or read the book, you would know that the people doing the raw brutality were Romans, they of the gladiators, lions & christians fame

I was not speaking about what the Romans did. I was speaking about God's need for a blood sacrifice.

thats just plain comercialism, you got me there, of course you don't wear Led Zepelin T-shirts or Lance Armstrong yellow bands, because you don't support any crass comercialism, right?

Not if I believe it capitalizes upon the death of a real person, no.

first of all, we're not Romans buddy, so no more crucifictions & since there's no other deities; Buddha, Allah & Ahura Mazda have nothing to fear, except maybe a hammer to break the statutes

Indeed. And why are yours sacrosanct?

~Raithere

 

[water]

Why can't God do it alone? Why would he have to "go through" anything?

To have people see and learn what He wants them to learn ...

Isn't he omnipotent? Isn't he the one that made up the rules in the first place?

... and still leave them free choice in what they do.

 

[spidergoat]

I have to say, it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. It gave me new insight on what happened. I don't doubt that Jews can be as decieving as anyone else, but considering the lack of reliable information about the incident, and the secondhand account we get from Roman sources, I question Mel Gibson's descision to portray almost all the Jews as a bloodthirsty mob, and the Roman leadership as the civilized and somewhat indifferent executors of the law (although the actual Roman crucifiers were necessarily violent).

If Jesus could accept a torturous death, why can't modern Christians accept being the victims of terrorism? Isnt' it hypocritical to fight back? Isn't that the real lesson? That "thou shall not kill" is a law that can't be broken, even, perhaps especially, in extreme circumstances?

I think this philosophy proved too inconvenient for post-Biblical Christians, so they changed it to a one-time sacrifice.

 

[Raithere]

To have people see and learn what He wants them to learn...

Why go through all the trouble? Why not imbue them with the desired understanding from the start?

... and still leave them free choice in what they do.

In which case God must value free will above following his rules.

~Raithere

 

[water]

Raithere,

Why go through all the trouble? Why not imbue them with the desired understanding from the start?

Surely, God could have made Himself puppets. But it seems He has other plans for humans.

... and still leave them free choice in what they do.

In which case God must value free will above following his rules.

Yes. But this doesn't imply universal salvation.
It is my understanding of Christianity that is up to you to severe yourself from God, or to love Him. But if you don't love Him, then you don't care whether you will send yourself to hell anyway.

~

 

[Raithere]

Surely, God could have made Himself puppets. But it seems He has other plans for humans.

What a silly, and oft repeated, assertion. Surely he could have made us wise and kind and good and still given us free will. For some reason theists insist that for free will to exist one must be capable of evil. So far I've yet to see a compelling argument for that.

Yes. But this doesn't imply universal salvation.

Why should we be damned for doing what God created us to do? If he wanted us obedient he could have made us obedient. If he wanted us to be purely good, he could have made us purely good. Instead he makes us as we are and then he's going to torture us forever for screwing up?!? What a fucking asshole.

Let me ask you two questions: If I were to put my child's hand in boiling water for disobeying my rules, what would you think of me? Now consider holding that hand in boiling water forever. How is God's behavior ethically any different?

It is my understanding of Christianity that is up to you to severe yourself from God, or to love Him. But if you don't love Him, then you don't care whether you will send yourself to hell anyway.

What is there to love? Please do tell me. I mean, I enjoy life and all but there sure is a lot of pain and death and suffering. What's the deal? How am I supposed to love someone who tortures children?

~Raithere