The Paradox of Our Age

[Michael 345]

What are the 'laws of physics' and where did they come from?

The so called laws of physics are a PROPERTY of stuff and did not come from anywhere

Not in the sense "we have a lump of something now let's make some laws about it"

Stuff and governing laws are a package deal

Spirituality is more about practice than it is about belief in purported natural or supernatural realities

And there's the rub. Science does not deal in beliefs
Beliefs, unless backed by evidence, cannot be examined

I believe Fred is 2 metres tall - Evidence used a agreed measure to check

I believe Fred is a good person - Evidence look at the charity work he does OK. What about his wife beating? Oh. Well he gives so much money to the homeless. OK. What about the 20 drink driving tickets? Oh

Where on the spirituality sliding guage would you place Fred? Would it depend only on what you know about him?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

but if you want to convince anyone else to share your opinions with you, you need to try harder to be persuasive and convincing.

I am not concerned with trying to convince others really and certainly your critical analysis is reasonable.
It is my belief that in spiritual matters one has little to no hope of changing someone elses view irrespective of how sound or how reasonable the bank of facts may be.
I expect I could proceed un a better fashion but really I see no need.

So you need to provide convincing arguments for each of those elements.

I think that is reasonable but I dont think one can expect others who are opposite in my view will do this...and part of my point is that my behaviour is no worse than my opposition and probably representative in general of how spiritualists approach arguement.

How can you be sure that those who talk about spirituality know that what they are saying is false and that they intend to deceive? (I'm doubtful that you can argue convincingly for any of those points.)

So much turns on the meaning of the word lie.
Discussions have gone before and the question raised re intent.
If the party making a statement that is untrue but which they believe is true may be classed as other than a lie however is it not reasonable for someone to still call an untrue statement a lie.
Rather than debate if the word lie is appropriate I would be just as happy to say spirituality is made up nonsense or imaginings without support and again these statements even with supporting evidence will not win the day in a battle between me and someone who takes an opposite view.
So even with its flaws I am happy to use the word lie...although I would be much happier to use the venacular popular in this country...bulldust or even bullshit.

I don't think that your analogy is very good.

Pity but I am still happy with using it.

We humans don't come close to understanding our environment or even ourselves.

I agree but we do not need to invent stuff to fill in the gaps and yet that seems the way of it.

I'm more inclined to think that the mysteries are right in front of our noses. We talk about things, but how do our words attach to the objects that we are talking about? Linguistic reference is still an open question. We look at things. But what are we really seeing, the external object, or just a representation of it in our heads? And what is the 'we' that's doing all the looking?

What are substances and properties? What kind of non-substantial reality do complex wholes have when they are composed entirely of parts? What does it mean to explain something? What are emergence and reduction?

What are logic and mathematics and how do we know about them? What kind of reality do numbers and mathematical relationships have and why do their properties seem to be discovered rather than invented? What are abstractions, generalities and universals?

What are the 'laws of physics' and where did they come from? What are possibility and necessity? How can an object remain the same object even as it changes? What is the 'redness' of red or the 'painfulness' of pain? And on and on...

I believe you are over thinking things.
Or are you trying to indicate spirituality is a state of confusion in a sea of wonder.
Still I enjoyed reading all of it.

The mystery is present in who and what we are, in everything we do, right here, right now.

Why does there have to be mystery. I know what I dont know and dont know what there could be that I dont know but from there I have no need to introduce any more and certainly have no need to speculate.

Presumably the universe has an origin, ontologically if not temporally. There's (presumably) some reason why there's 'something rather than nothing', for why reality exists at all. There's (presumably) some explanation for why the 'laws of physics' are what they are, and some explanation of how they came to be.

So presumably some of the arguments of natural theology still require answers. And if we follow natural theology in defining 'God' as whatever the answers are ('God' as 'first-cause', 'God' as 'designer/source of cosmic order' etc.),

You can drive a log way with a tank full of presumption.
Why does the universe need a begining?
To satisfy a humans need to relate it to common experience?
Why not presume it has no begining if we are in the business of presumption.
Or lets presume it is a large animal and we are microbes. ..presumption does not work for me.

I don't have a clue what the answers are.

If only all humans could be so humble what a wonderful world we would enjoy.
Yet you drift away from that position at little herein.
Thats ok a little exercise is better than none.

That's my position and I see no need to retract it either.

There is no need for you to retract anything..we deal with opinion and although their owners treat their opinions like their children being incapable of ever being wrong opinions are often wrong, often not specific and often uninformed yet they are ours and we defend them as we would our children and with the same refusal to see any flaw.

A most enjoyable post from you and I thank you for taking the time to consider my proposition that spirituality is a lie.
In retrospect and having considered your comments I think I should have overcome my dislike of profanity and said spirituality is bullshit but I doubt that would see you any happier.

Alex

 

[DaveC426913]

But I say so what they are guidlines that I reject and I refuse to play according to those rules.

Well then you are not arguing in good faith. That hurts you.

Yes it is...so is it your claim that not all spirituality is a lie.

I have made no such clam. All I have done is request taht you efned yours.

My game is to draw things out and keep repeating usually one simple point and breaking rules draws attention and gives further milage.

That has not helped the trolls on this forum. That's why I said 'don't be Jan'

Moreover I took that stand really because those who often support nonsense do so in a similar fashion where as us polite folk stay within the rules.. So I dont need evidence all spirituality is a lie and its that way because I know I am right...I think I could be good at it with practice.

Ah. So this was all a ploy - an attempt to give them a taste of their own medicine.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

It's easy to dismiss these kind of things, but doing so is foolish and short sighted in my opinion.

And thank you for your opinion and thank you for all your links I was not able to read them until today but better late than never.

Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Well then you are not arguing in good faith.

Yes I am but a little sneeky.

I have to go out so forgive me that I will put off reply until later.

Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Ah. So this was all a ploy - an attempt to give them a taste of their own medicine.

Frustration that they wont change their positions when I argue the right way mixed with confusion generated by the fact I dont want them to change because of my arguement and some kind of, as you put it, give back their own medicine.

And then when I ask why bother I can not answer so what need do I cater to?

Alex

 

[Beer w/Straw]

To the OP.

Oh, and if the geezer is just trying to seek some high ground comfort in misery loves company, instead of just lamenting like he didn't have a puppy when he was growing up, he should come to gripes that world can seem a cruel place.

But that would be politics I guess.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

Heh

 

[river]

Its seems that the cruelty of our age is in the hands of the powerful few rather than the many .

 

[river]

Thought that this seemed as fitting now as ever. I've seen this attributed to multiple sources but it seems Bob Moorehead was the author. Wise words...

The Paradox of Our Age
Dr. Bob

We have taller buildings but shorter tempers; wider freeways but narrower viewpoints; we spend more but have less; we buy more but enjoy it less; we have bigger houses and smaller families; more conveniences, yet less time; we have more degrees but less sense; more knowledge but less judgement; more experts, yet more problems; we have more gadgets but less satisfaction; more medicine, yet less wellness; we take more vitamins but see fewer results. We drink too much; smoke too much; spend too recklessly; laugh too little; drive too fast; get too angry quickly; stay up too late; get up too tired; read too seldom; watch TV too much and pray too seldom.

We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values; we fly in faster planes to arrive there quicker, to do less and return sooner; we sign more contracts only to realize fewer profits; we talk too much; love too seldom and lie too often. We've learned how to make a living, but not a life; we've added years to life, not life to years. We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet the new neighbor. We've conquered outer space, but not inner space; we've done larger things, but not better things; we've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul; we've split the atom, but not our prejudice; we write more, but learn less; plan more, but accomplish less; we make faster planes, but longer lines; we learned to rush, but not to wait; we have more weapons, but less peace; higher incomes, but lower morals; more parties, but less fun; more food, but less appeasement; more acquaintances, but fewer friends; more effort, but less success. We build more computers to hold more information, to produce more copies than ever, but have less communication; drive smaller cars that have bigger problems; build larger factories that produce less. We've become long on quantity, but short on quality.

These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion; tall men, but short character; steep in profits, but shallow relationships. These are times of world peace, but domestic warfare; more leisure and less fun; higher postage, but slower mail; more kinds of food, but less nutrition. These are days of two incomes, but more divorces; these are times of fancier houses, but broken homes. These are days of quick trips, disposable diapers, cartridge living, thow-away morality, one-night stands, overweight bodies and pills that do everything from cheer, to prevent, quiet or kill. It is a time when there is much in the show window and nothing in the stock room. Indeed, these are the times!

Hear , Hear

There is much which has glossed over our psychological change .

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

Thought that this seemed as fitting now as ever. I've seen this attributed to multiple sources but it seems Bob Moorehead was the author. Wise words...

The Paradox of Our Age
Dr. Bob

We have taller buildings but shorter tempers; wider freeways but narrower viewpoints; we spend more but have less; we buy more but enjoy it less; we have bigger houses and smaller families; more conveniences, yet less time; we have more degrees but less sense; more knowledge but less judgement; more experts, yet more problems; we have more gadgets but less satisfaction; more medicine, yet less wellness; we take more vitamins but see fewer results. We drink too much; smoke too much; spend too recklessly; laugh too little; drive too fast; get too angry quickly; stay up too late; get up too tired; read too seldom; watch TV too much and pray too seldom.

We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values; we fly in faster planes to arrive there quicker, to do less and return sooner; we sign more contracts only to realize fewer profits; we talk too much; love too seldom and lie too often. We've learned how to make a living, but not a life; we've added years to life, not life to years. We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet the new neighbor. We've conquered outer space, but not inner space; we've done larger things, but not better things; we've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul; we've split the atom, but not our prejudice; we write more, but learn less; plan more, but accomplish less; we make faster planes, but longer lines; we learned to rush, but not to wait; we have more weapons, but less peace; higher incomes, but lower morals; more parties, but less fun; more food, but less appeasement; more acquaintances, but fewer friends; more effort, but less success. We build more computers to hold more information, to produce more copies than ever, but have less communication; drive smaller cars that have bigger problems; build larger factories that produce less. We've become long on quantity, but short on quality.

These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion; tall men, but short character; steep in profits, but shallow relationships. These are times of world peace, but domestic warfare; more leisure and less fun; higher postage, but slower mail; more kinds of food, but less nutrition. These are days of two incomes, but more divorces; these are times of fancier houses, but broken homes. These are days of quick trips, disposable diapers, cartridge living, thow-away morality, one-night stands, overweight bodies and pills that do everything from cheer, to prevent, quiet or kill. It is a time when there is much in the show window and nothing in the stock room. Indeed, these are the times!

^^^
Humans character & values are not much, if at all, different from what they were thruout our known history. Constantly, people who do not know history make similiar claims. Socrates bemoaned the character & behavior of the youth of his time & place as people here did in the 50s, 60s, 70s & today.
People in developed countries are safer than they have been any time prior to 50 years ago. Tho yes, so called civilization should treat its children, elderly, handicapped & poor much better, they are much better off than any time previously. Rape & child abuse happen much less & are prosecuted much more than ever before. Our justice system needs much improvement but it is so much better than thru most of history. Being poor can be devastating but most of the poor in developed countries live better than kings did not long ago. Law enforcement was corrupt thruout history but tho it is far from perfect, it is much better today. Our food should be much better but far less people die from bad food & far less people go hungry.

When a husband & wife cannot get along together well enough, they should divorce. It is much worse for children to be exposed to such hell than to have divorced parents & it is better for the parents to try to find someone they can be better with. My parents should have divorced long before they did.
1 night stands may not be good for you but you do not know whether they are good or right for others.

People have always had short tempers, little sense, bad judgement, quick anger & narrow viewpoints. Tho I certainly encourage more reading, reading much was not an option for most people thru most history. There is much less prejudice than ever before. We have much more communication than ever before & that may be a major key to improving things.
IF enough people who claim to love their fellow man actually did, there would be no such thing as money. But there is much more charity than ever before. Significant disaster aid is a fairly new thing in history as are homeless shelters. The Red Cross started only 153 years ago. People no longer go to prison for being unable to pay debts. Prisons should be improved but they are not 1 tenth the inhumane hellholes they were. Mental hospitals are a farce mostly yet they are much better than the Bedlams of the past.

The Good Old Days are fantasy with extremely little basis in reality.
Societies & individual humans need much improvement but looking at the past with rose colored glasses does not help. People are probably a bit better than before. They are definitely not much worse.

<>

 

[Kittamaru]

^^^
Humans character & values are not much, if at all, different from what they were thruout our known history. Constantly, people who do not know history make similiar claims. Socrates bemoaned the character & behavior of the youth of his time & place as people here did in the 50s, 60s, 70s & today.
People in developed countries are safer than they have been any time prior to 50 years ago. Tho yes, so called civilization should treat its children, elderly, handicapped & poor much better, they are much better off than any time previously. Rape & child abuse happen much less & are prosecuted much more than ever before. Our justice system needs much improvement but it is so much better than thru most of history. Being poor can be devastating but most of the poor in developed countries live better than kings did not long ago. Law enforcement was corrupt thruout history but tho it is far from perfect, it is much better today. Our food should be much better but far less people die from bad food & far less people go hungry.

When a husband & wife cannot get along together well enough, they should divorce. It is much worse for children to be exposed to such hell than to have divorced parents & it is better for the parents to try to find someone they can be better with. My parents should have divorced long before they did.
1 night stands may not be good for you but you do not know whether they are good or right for others.

People have always had short tempers, little sense, bad judgement, quick anger & narrow viewpoints. Tho I certainly encourage more reading, reading much was not an option for most people thru most history. There is much less prejudice than ever before. We have much more communication than ever before & that may be a major key to improving things.
IF enough people who claim to love their fellow man actually did, there would be no such thing as money. But there is much more charity than ever before. Significant disaster aid is a fairly new thing in history as are homeless shelters. The Red Cross started only 153 years ago. People no longer go to prison for being unable to pay debts. Prisons should be improved but they are not 1 tenth the inhumane hellholes they were. Mental hospitals are a farce mostly yet they are much better than the Bedlams of the past.

The Good Old Days are fantasy with extremely little basis in reality.
Societies & individual humans need much improvement but looking at the past with rose colored glasses does not help. People are probably a bit better than before. They are definitely not much worse.

<>

So, in essence, you are attributing it to looking at the past through Rose Coloured Glasses?

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

So, in essence, you are attributing it to looking at the past through Rose Coloured Glasses?

^^^
I doubt it is due to any 1 thing but being so unaware of history does not help & neither does longing for Good Old Days which never existed.

<>

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Well the preacher did his job as have we not reflected upon his words and a realisation things are pretty good..
Look you can chew a Macas burger with your tounge how good is that..reduced dental bills.
But those folk get people to think somehow better and maybe it is a backward way of getting folk to be happy...
Now there's a job.
Alex

 

[StrangerInAStrangeLand]

^^^
Rape & child abuse happen much less & far less people go hungry.

<>

^^^
Just to be clear : In some statements, I meant less percentage not necessarily less numbers due to there being more people than before.

<>

 

[Beer w/Straw]

Aside from the author in the OP, can you imagine having to do a sermon every week?

-Ah, WTF do I regurgitate this week?

 

[iceaura]

So even with its flaws I am happy to use the word lie...although I would be much happier to use the venacular popular in this country...bulldust or even bullshit.

That would be, probably, wrong - lie would be likely more accurate.
The essential characteristic of bullshit is that its perpetrator does not care whether they are right or wrong, true or false, accurate or not: the purpose is to get what one wants, not communicate an idea. Most religious types seem to care.

Aside from the author in the OP, can you imagine having to do a sermon every week?

I've been told by a professional that a saying of the ministerial cadre is that everyone has one sermon in them, some have two or three, but to have fifty a year for twenty or thirty years it has to be your life. I offered the possibility of making them shorter, as a remedy. He said that was harder, not easier.