The only thing science needs to win the debate

Boygenius,

Computers "evolving" and the theory of evolution are incredibly different things.
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Why?

People had ideas, tried different things, and created them.
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Are you sure? Could an ancient caveman conceive the idea of a modern computer and then create it? People work with things they know and can manipulate and then transform them very slightly into improvements or something else. People aren’t creators they are catalysts causing existing objects to combine, interact and evolve. People are just a part of nature as everything else. We just happen to interact with the rest of nature by using our intelligence.

Your argument is completely invalid unless you are arguing for a God who created us in different ways to see what worked.
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The Christian story is that God created us intact as we are now. I believe there is no precedent for anything completely new and complex ever having been designed and created. Everything we know and experience are the result of a long preceding set of adaptations, improvements, and adjustments.
 
We are, truly, caught in the Matrix. Have you ever wondered why the movie had so many Christian imagery? How was Neo resurrected from death? By Trinity's love.

==========

Jenyar, you responce about science being the "counter-enlightenment" was well-spoken.
Satan is the "god of this evil age"
And science is a tool in his hand to deceive men.
The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil"
By this they "lean to their own understanding" and try to reason against God, because Satan is the prince of the power of the air, for a short time yet, and he has access to the human mind.
The spirit of man is fallen scince Adam, at emnity with God.


The Matrix....yes,
It could be used as a training manual for the sons of God.
The "types" are all through that movie, if you know what to look for.

What's he doing...?
He's starting to believe........Yes!
 
Science is the devil? :p
Do you know what science is? It wasn't designed to debunk christianity, that just naturally happened, science figures out how and why things are. It turns out the truth is nothing like the bible would have had us believe. Thats a real bummer(for some) but thats the way it is. Deal with it.
 
Science is nothing. It is human observation. It is an empirical tool. Is electricity good or bad? Depends on how you use it. Are people good or bad? Depends on how they apply themselves.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Science is nothing. It is human observation. It is an empirical tool. Is electricity good or bad? Depends on how you use it. Are people good or bad? Depends on how they apply themselves.
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For those answers you need to look to philosophy, not science. You're asking the wrong questions of science if you are asking it to assign value.

I notice that you claim science is nothing yet you seem to be enjoying at least part of what it has to offer. I'm just wondering if your computer is in a cave and you snack on raw nuts and berries in the buff or do you, in fact, enjoy innumerable benefits from science (like cooked food, clothing, a house, air conditioning, etc.)

Do I call you hypocrite or were you perhaps mistaken or overstating the case?

~Raithere
 
Bridge: You seem confused about induction and deduction and the difference between the two. Would you like me to explain it to you? I don't want to waste my time if you're not interested.
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What I'd really like for you to do is elucidate where I confused the two, maybe post a quote or two of mine for examples and then you can explain away.
 
Oh Cris!

Note that your story is not describing a scientist but perhaps an uninformed philosopher. I.e. you seem to be trying to discredit science by inaccurately portraying scientists.
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Darling Cris, you may want to read this very timely article (4/22/03) about a gent named Professor Colin Humphreys (Cambridge University's Goldsmith's Professor of Materials Science)... he actually proves my point to a "T".

Enjoy! :D I know I did!!!!:p

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/cambridgeshire/2967039.stm
 
Bridge:

Ok. Here's why I think you're confused. You asked Cris:

"Would it be an inductive or deductive assertion for me to say all evidence indicates that everything that exists has been designed?"

and

"Is it an inductive or deductive claim when science takes apart the DNA molecule, studies it, makes models of the double helix, translates the coded language contained within it and claims it somehow evolved?"

and when Cris said "Everything evolves, even computers evolve" you asked:

"Was that an inductive or deductive claim?"

Now, it seems to me that if you actually understood what induction and deduction were, then you would realise that none of these claims are either inductive or deductive in themselves. Rather, they are conclusions which might result from inductive or deductive reasoning, or a combination of both.

No <b>claim</b> is inductive or inductive. An <b>argument</b> for a particular conclusion can be based on induction or deduction. Induction and deduction refer to particular methods of reasoning, not to claims.

Would you like some examples?
 
Dr. Lou Natic said:
Science is the devil? :p

==============

I never said that, you did.......

But it is the result of man's choise to "lean upon his own understanding" instead of trust in God, from the beginning.

Satan is more intelligent than man.
He will control mankind if they try to use reason.....

Thats why The word of God tells us to "cast down reasonings or affections or anything that exalts itself against the word of god

Even Jesus Christ Himself, did not defeat the devil by the powers of His own human reasoning..
He defeated the devil at his every move, with the Word of God.
He said: it is written....ect..

Because of man's desision to follow Satan's lead given to Eve, and choose unbeleif in God's Word, accepting the devil's lie....,
Man will gain power from the tree of good and evil, but lack the character that only comes from God to control such power.
Power without character is Satanic.
This is why our world was foretold being "destroyed" by fire..
God doesn't destroy the world, man does.
 
TheVisitor,

Satan is more intelligent than man. He will control mankind if they try to use reason.....

Thats why The word of God tells us to "cast down reasonings or affections or anything that exalts itself against the word of god
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Ok finnally understand why you never make any sense, you don't try and use reason.

Only kidding :D

Seriously how are we supposed to understand religion and even the world around us if we don't use reason?
 
Seriously how are we supposed to understand religion and even the world around us if we don't use reason

===========

Revelation.
Revelation is given directly to the soul of a born again christian.
First you must believe Jesus Christ died for you and rose again.
Then get baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, not in the nameless titles the churches use.
And then you shall receive the promise of the Holy Ghost...

Then you are born "a spirit babe".....in the kingdom of God.
Like any baby, you have to start with milk, the simplier things to "digest"
You must be born again to "see" or "understand" the kingdom of God.
God teaches His children from His Word through types and shadows....and uses an vindicated five-fold ministry of God called men...prophets, apostles, pastors, teachers, and evangelists.
He has a provided place of worship....and correction to learn truth and understanding.
Thats the place He put His name, in Jesus Christ, the Word of God.
Not some creed or tradition, mixing mans words with God's.
This makes the Word of none-effect.

Learn how to crawl, walk, stand, and have your spiritual senses exercised in the disernment of good from evil.
You must put on the whole armor of God.
Your new spirit creation is Christ in you...the hope of glory.

This soul man is fed from the Word of God and grows in strength and power.
Also in revelation....by this you will come to know "all things"
Jesus said my Words are meat indeed....
Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man you will have no life in you;.

Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter.
He said "who do men say I the son of man am..?
Peter answered: some say elias, jerimiah, or one of the prophets.
Jesus said: who do you say that I am...?
peter said: "thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Then Jesus said: "Flesh and blood has not REVEALED this to you...but my Father in heaven has REVEALED it."
On this "Rock" (meaning revelation) I will build my church (or actually "the called out ones"), and the gates of hell (the false worldly churches who use mens words and reasoning, the so-called "christian" denominations...) will not prevail against it.
Read Revelations 18:1-4
The Son of Man is being revealed today, and is calling out from these Himself a bride.
Solomon was the wisest man that ever lived to His day....and he did not get this wisdom from his own human reasoning, but from the Spirit of God, and the disernment of "all things" It brings....
The "christian" examples you have known in this "age" are religions that have "mixed" the Word of God with their own creeds and dogmas, making the Word of none-effect.

This is a fresh move of God, the visitation promised in the scriptures for this day, that said: "when He puts forth another "branch" it will be just like the first one,.. Jesus Christ Himself"...
When He comes the scriptures said, we shall be like Him.
We are brought up into His image in the stature of a perfect man.
God, chose the "foolishness" of preaching, that by the "foolish" things of this world, He might confound the "wisdom" of the wise....


" For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.



They that are led by the Spirit of God, they shall be called the Sons of God.
 
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Bridge

The only thing science really needs to prove in order to win the debate over religion is show that the foundation of all true knowledge is material, empirical, and quantifiable .
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I don't understand this statement. What is 'all true knowledge'?
 
Originally posted by Raithere
For those answers you need to look to philosophy, not science. You're asking the wrong questions of science if you are asking it to assign value.

I notice that you claim science is nothing yet you seem to be enjoying at least part of what it has to offer. I'm just wondering if your computer is in a cave and you snack on raw nuts and berries in the buff or do you, in fact, enjoy innumerable benefits from science (like cooked food, clothing, a house, air conditioning, etc.)

Do I call you hypocrite or were you perhaps mistaken or overstating the case?
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Sorry for not making myself clear. Those were rhethorical questions demonstrating the fallacy of asking science questions. If it were ever possible to answer a rhethorical question, you did: that is the realm of philosophy (which is what we're doing here - we're philosophizing about science).

Is my computer the product of science? No. It is the product of (very rich) people who applied what we learned from science. I did not see science get out of bed at 5am to drive to the factory. Science is observation and implementation - a tool.

God is concerned with our lives as people, not our enterprises and advances in science. Let me put it another way: Trying to prove God from the perspective of empirical science alone, is like trying to hit Him while swinging a stick with your eyes closed, and then saying that He does not exist because you struck only air.
 
the false worldly churches who use mens words and reasoning, the so-called "christian" denominations...
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So you are not a Christian? Or are you the only "true" Christian? I smell a rat...

The "christian" examples you have known in this "age" are religions that have "mixed" the Word of God with their own creeds and dogmas, making the Word of none-effect.
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As you have demonstrated yourself above.

What would you like us Christians to do, theVisitor? You have preached fire and brimstone to Christian and non-Christian alike since you got here, and have provided no resolution - except certain non-biblical interpretations - the very thing Christians are criticized for.

I think it is time you provide a step-by-step plan of salvation for us (and please point out how this differs from the church). No doubt there are hypocrites and false prophets out there, but even a prophet pointing out false prophets could be false, don't you agree?

The one who can point out the most falseness isn't necessarily also the most right.
 
Jenyar said
What would you like us Christians to do, theVisitor? You have preached fire and brimstone to Christian and non-Christian alike since you got here, and have provided no resolution - except certain non-biblical interpretations - the very thing Christians are criticized for.

==============

Im sorry if I've offended your denominational beliefs, but the Word of God is clear on the subject.....And if your offended, it is by the Word of God I speak.
Does the Words of Jesus Christ offend you...?

You said I've offered only non-biblical interpretaions.....
They are only that to you, because you are unfamiliar with the revealed Word of God...
Jesus Christ has come and made His Word clear to His bride in this day.

Everything I've said is in the bible.
Christ comes with the little book open in this day, not to add to or take away, but to REVEAL that which was there all along which was sealed,
To be revealed to the Sons of God, to destroy the works of the enemy.
It is the glory of God revealed in us...The true sayings of God.
When the day star arise in your heart.....
This is the rising of the sun..Now today
Your cold, dead, denominations cannot keep His people in the grave. Or His words from coming to life.
When he comes, and He has...we shall be like Him.
The denominations of the anti-Christ have blinded the eyes of men to the Word and rendered their false interprtations of the scriptures in every age.
 
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The denomination of the anti-Christ have blinded the eyes of men to the Word and rendered their false interprtations of the scriptures in every age.
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Agreed. So maybe you should get out of it while you can still think for yourself. Because I assure you that

neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate me from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus my Lord.
 
You ask for a step - by - step plan of salvation, that "differs" from that of the church.
================

The two spirits in the last days, are so close it would deceive the very elect, if it were possible.
Thats why you must have revelation from God to know the difference.
Revelation is given directly to the soul of a born again christian.
First you must believe Jesus Christ died for you and rose again.
Then get baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, not in the nameless titles the churches use.
And then you shall receive the promise of the Holy Ghost...

Then you are born "a spirit babe".....in the kingdom of God.
Like any baby, you have to start with milk, the simplier things to "digest"
You must be born again to "see" or "understand" the kingdom of God.
God teaches His children from His Word through types and shadows....and uses an vindicated five-fold ministry of God called men...prophets, apostles, pastors, teachers, and evangelists.
He has a provided place of worship....and correction to learn truth and understanding.
Thats the place He put His name, in Jesus Christ, the Word of God.
Not some creed or tradition, mixing mans words with God's.
This makes the Word of none-effect.

Learn how to crawl, walk, stand, and have your spiritual senses exercised in the disernment of good from evil.
You must put on the whole armor of God.
Your new spirit creation is Christ in you...the hope of glory.

This soul man is fed from the Word of God and grows in strength and power.
Also in revelation....by this you will come to know "all things"
Jesus said my Words are meat indeed....
Unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the son of man you will have no life in you;.

Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter.
He said "who do men say I the son of man am..?
Peter answered: some say elias, jerimiah, or one of the prophets.
Jesus said: who do you say that I am...?
peter said: "thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Then Jesus said: "Flesh and blood has not REVEALED this to you...but my Father in heaven has REVEALED it."
On this "Rock" (meaning revelation) I will build my church (or actually "the called out ones"), and the gates of hell (the false worldly churches who use mens words and reasoning, the so-called "christian" denominations...) will not prevail against it.
Read Revelations 18:1-4
The Son of Man is being revealed today, and is calling out from these Himself a bride.
Solomon was the wisest man that ever lived to His day....and he did not get this wisdom from his own human reasoning, but from the Spirit of God, and the disernment of "all things" It brings....
The "christian" examples you have known in this "age" are religions that have "mixed" the Word of God with their own creeds and dogmas, making the Word of none-effect.

This is a fresh move of God, the visitation promised in the scriptures for this day, that said: "when He puts forth another "branch" it will be just like the first one,.. Jesus Christ Himself"...
When He comes the scriptures said, we shall be like Him.
We are brought up into His image in the stature of a perfect man.
God, chose the "foolishness" of preaching, that by the "foolish" things of this world, He might confound the "wisdom" of the wise....


" For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


God's provided place of worship is where He chose to put His name...Jesus Christ.
And He is The Word of God...I will lead no one to a certain church, but God has the truth here for those who are looking, he always has had a small group to speak the words of life.
Life is passed through the body, the Body of Jesus Christ....
They that are led by the Spirit of God, they shall be called the Sons of God.
 
Originally posted by Bridge
The only thing science really needs to prove in order to win the debate over religion is show that the foundation of all true knowledge is material, empirical, and quantifiable .
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quantification is not an essential characteristic of science

and the function of science is not to give meaning to life. Science could influence the outlook on life, which could influence the meaning an individual would give to life. But not always.
 
James R.

The reason I asked whether it was inductive or deductive is because atheists have different approaches to ideas than theists. Take for example Cris' approach and attitude towards a scientist who attempts to explain biblical miracles. In reference to my claim that this is a "disguised" form of deuctive reasoning she totally fell in head first.

Note that your story is not describing a scientist but perhaps an uninformed philosopher. I.e. you seem to be trying to discredit science by inaccurately portraying scientists.


quote:
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and based on that presupposition (not anything observable)
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But if it not observable then only hypothesis or theory is possible.


quote:
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may attempt to formulate another explanation, ie. tidal movement, earthquake, drought, etc. This is a disguised form of deductive reasoning.
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Not to a real scientist.
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Then I proceeded to show her an article in which A REAL SCIENTIST did EXACTLY what I said he would do!!!

So you tell me I don't understand the difference between inductive and deductive claims? How about you lecture Cris?
 
Voodoo Child regarding probabilities associated with life evolving through random naturalistic coincidences:


Try Bayes Theorem, even someone as clueless as myself could figure it out.
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Good idea! If, that is, you know all forms life can take, you know all possible methods of construction for these forms and can assign them meaningful probabilities. You can only use Bayes' once you define the events(and other stuff, as well).

We haven't observed any blackholes either, should we rule them out too? [/B]
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No, we have observed substantial evidence for blackholes. I didn't say we had to observe anything directly. Further, blackholes don't violate the fundamental laws of the universe and spit in the face of Ockham.
 
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