Cris said:
How? Have you read the bible? Carefully?
The omniscient argument
- Thread starter ggazoo
- Start date
How? Have you read the bible? Carefully?
Possibly because it advocates the outright destruction of those who do not believe? And endorses the abandonment of reason.
Cris is a mythbuster, i think he study the bible to find all it's contradictions.
superluminal said:
It does? Have you read the bible?
Falling,
Did you know that if you express doubt about the holy spirit that that is an unforgiveable sin? Not even Jesus can forgive you.
And one of my favorite passages Luke 19:27 "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me", - Jesus.
Demonstrates the real love of the Christian message don't you think? Charles Manson and David Koresh didn't get their ideas from video games.
So have you read the bible - objectively? Or just through the filter of Christian dogma? Looked at as mythology it is quite wonderful in many ways. And of course the mythical Jesus character is just another rendition of Attis, Mithras, Osiris, and Dionysis, etc. To understand the bible one needs to understand the sources used by the mythmakers who wrote it, and those sources were the dominant mythologies of those times.
Many times and many versions. And in the past with the help of bible study classes although that was some 36 years ago now.
Did you know that if you express doubt about the holy spirit that that is an unforgiveable sin? Not even Jesus can forgive you.
And one of my favorite passages Luke 19:27 "But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them before me", - Jesus.
Demonstrates the real love of the Christian message don't you think? Charles Manson and David Koresh didn't get their ideas from video games.
So have you read the bible - objectively? Or just through the filter of Christian dogma? Looked at as mythology it is quite wonderful in many ways. And of course the mythical Jesus character is just another rendition of Attis, Mithras, Osiris, and Dionysis, etc. To understand the bible one needs to understand the sources used by the mythmakers who wrote it, and those sources were the dominant mythologies of those times.
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Cris said:
If you express doubt? That doesn't seem right...I mean, there are things in the Bible that can be misconstrued by how you interpret it, as I'm sure you know. If you rebuke God at the final judgement, then you're screwed.. but condemned for doubt? I don't think so. I'd like to see what you're referring to. Passage please?
Cris said:
I looked that up...and Jesus was telling a <i>parable</i> about a King when he said that.. 19:11 "While they were listening to this, he(jesus) went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12: He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to hav himself appointed king and then to return. 13: So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas. Put this money to work, he said, until I come back. 19:14 But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, "We don't want this man to be our king."...20"then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina I have kept it laid away i na piece of cloth. I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow'"....and the parable continues///19:26 "He(the king) replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be gien, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27 "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me."
Now, you made that sound as if Jesus was saying this directly. This parable is, it seems clear to me, is not meant to be interpreted too literally. The King is described as unethical, and this cannot be analogous to God because obviously Jesus would not teach that God is unethical. And Jesus, in previous teachings, rebuked his disciples for suggesting that a village who rejected him be destroyed. Jesus also often reinforces important points after telling parables, DIRECTLY..he did not after this parable. Obviously, Jesus taught much of his message through parables, so this parable has to have some analagous meaning.. but it seems pretty apparent that it's dealing with God's future final judgement, not present-day judgement by humans.
Cris said:
How about a direct quote that can be interpreted exactly how it is said? Matthew 5:43 "You have hard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." - Jesus.
Cris said:
I'll check the mythology thing out. And no, I have not read all of the Bible; I have recently begun reading parts(and I know a little about it), although it is a goal of mine to read it in its entirety, as I think anyone who claims to "know" things about the Bible should. I'm sure many who haven't read the Bible(and like to dismantle it anyway) would take that "quote" from Jesus as direct, because they want their beliefs in the bible to be confirmed. I don't want to talk about/assume things about something I know very little about, as so many non-christians do; and as I've observed even people who CLAIM to be Christians have absolutely no idea why they believe what they do. So I will read, and experience it for myself; I've come to realize that I can't trust other humans, even those who seem or act like they know, to give me straightforward "objective" information.
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Falling,
I understand that very few Christians have read the bible entirely, although much of it is fairly boring, and much is ambiguous, so their lack of attention span is understandable.
So a couple of key things to watch - Mark (the first gospel) was written at earliest around 70CE, and the alleged Jesus would have died around 33CE. That leaves a 40 year gap. In our modern times with TV and recording media we'd have a pretty good idea of what happened in the past 40 years but back then it was all entirely by word of mouth and where objective reporting was not paramount, it still isn't today. This pretty much means that the gospels are not eye-witness accounts and their recording accuracy is going to be very low. So statements in the gospels that appear to be quoting long dissertations from an alleged Jesus are almost certainly going to be from the imagination of the author and not from any actual Jesus.
Note also that Paul began his mission during this 40 year gap and essentially created the Christian religion, but note from his letters that he never mentions any of the key activities described in the gospels. Except for primarily the ressurection and atonement parts. But then these were common ideas from many earlier mythologies. It is also clear he never met Jesus and so he is not an eye-witness and it is unclear if he ever considers that Jesus was ever a man.
So where does that leave Christianity? Just a set of interesting myths. So read and enjoy but don't read it expecting any revealing truths.
I understand that very few Christians have read the bible entirely, although much of it is fairly boring, and much is ambiguous, so their lack of attention span is understandable.
So a couple of key things to watch - Mark (the first gospel) was written at earliest around 70CE, and the alleged Jesus would have died around 33CE. That leaves a 40 year gap. In our modern times with TV and recording media we'd have a pretty good idea of what happened in the past 40 years but back then it was all entirely by word of mouth and where objective reporting was not paramount, it still isn't today. This pretty much means that the gospels are not eye-witness accounts and their recording accuracy is going to be very low. So statements in the gospels that appear to be quoting long dissertations from an alleged Jesus are almost certainly going to be from the imagination of the author and not from any actual Jesus.
Note also that Paul began his mission during this 40 year gap and essentially created the Christian religion, but note from his letters that he never mentions any of the key activities described in the gospels. Except for primarily the ressurection and atonement parts. But then these were common ideas from many earlier mythologies. It is also clear he never met Jesus and so he is not an eye-witness and it is unclear if he ever considers that Jesus was ever a man.
So where does that leave Christianity? Just a set of interesting myths. So read and enjoy but don't read it expecting any revealing truths.
You go Cris!
/agree
Can't underscore the importance of the Council of Nicea either, in polishing the image of "Paul's" Hero, or of early Popes at suppressing "heresey" and revising cannonical "scripture" at will.
Can't underscore the importance of the Council of Nicea either, in polishing the image of "Paul's" Hero, or of early Popes at suppressing "heresey" and revising cannonical "scripture" at will.
FallingSkyward said:
People actually believe in all of the crap that happens in the same book, and most of it could very well be crap. No proof, and it was all written hundreds and hudreds of years ago.
I actually read the bible to think deeper into things, like an outlet I can use when I'm frustrated. It answers a few important questions, but you shouldn't take the stories literally, because perhaps they weren't meant to be literal.
Perhaps someone put those in there to set an example, or to fuel a new religon to start.
Also, I always thought the bible was not to be taken so seriously, actually.
For example, I have a buddy who's a religous Christian, and 'Harry Potter' actually offends him. He says witches/wizards use 'black magic', which endorses Satan.
I just rolled my eyes with a "whatever" look on my face.
For the record, I haven't heard of a single Catholic person that thinks Harry Potter is offensive.
Which is my point - People (note: Christians) take the bible TOO seriously.
They don't actually see the real picture. It doesn't matter how Jesus was killed,
or how Noah put animals on his Ark - that's not the point.
People use Jesus's death to inspire faith, and that's the wrong thing to do. People want to use carnage and suffering to inspire good things, but that's all wrong too.
We need to not to these things so seriously and drive ourselves/yourselves mad with thirst for more people to be the same as us/you.
Not everyone is going to believe in God, and not everyone is going to care about what happened to him. Get over it. Trying to say their the evil seed of Satan is horrible and disrespectful. Even my own mother doesn't do it, as religious as she is.
cris said:
You can find revealing truths all over the place. You can find them in a freakin video game, or on a dumb-ass tv show, if you are smart enough to ferret them out. When you have already figured it all out, however, there is nothing more for you to learn.
Also, christianity is even harsher - the passage about delivering a person, who is f*ing up, to satan to be destroyed so that their soul may be saved. (1corinthians 5:5).
Being delivered to satan sounds a lot worse than being slain. But in the end it is all rosy. Who interprets the bible? You? Then your interpretation is ok, for you, that's it. Don't put your interpretations up as a strawman to attack- they are quite possibly incorrect, as evidenced by your (fundie inspired, granted) interpretation of Luke.
EDIT - P.S. the most offensive thing about harry potter books is the writing style.
First of all my apolegies for this blatant Thread Jacking. 
As I've been reading here I've seen mentioned J.C. many times, well it appears Jesus will have his day in court.
Did Jesus exist? Court to decide
Some Christians who read the bible, latter became atheists!
So far as known here in Sciforums. Medicine Woman & SouthStar.
And this guy even wrote a book about it!
Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist
Many atheist were previously religious of one denomination or another, it be interesting to find out, which atheists here have a background in religious denomination and which one.
Godless
As I've been reading here I've seen mentioned J.C. many times, well it appears Jesus will have his day in court.
Did Jesus exist? Court to decide
Some Christians who read the bible, latter became atheists!
So far as known here in Sciforums. Medicine Woman & SouthStar.
And this guy even wrote a book about it!
Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist
Many atheist were previously religious of one denomination or another, it be interesting to find out, which atheists here have a background in religious denomination and which one.
Godless
Godless said:First of all my apolegies for this blatant Thread Jacking.
As I've been reading here I've seen mentioned J.C. many times, well it appears Jesus will have his day in court.
Did Jesus exist? Court to decide
Godless
I say, this should be quite interesting to see the outcome.
http://www.ksdk.com/news/hot_topics_article.aspx?storyid=91389