The omniscient argument

[ggazoo]

I’ve seen a lot of posts around here stating that if God is omniscient, then that’s proof that he doesn’t exist, right? Well, not really. From a scientific standpoint, the Christian God exists in at least two time dimensions, therefore His free-will is not hindered by our dimension of time. He stands both above and within our time line, since our line of time runs through His plane of time.

God knows what each person will do and can put him anywhere in our time line to accomplish His purposes. Complete free-will and complete predestination is possible in two dimensions of time. However, this concept may require some time to think about.

There is much evidence from both the Bible and from science that demonstrates God must exist and operate in dimensions of space and time other than those to which we are confined. God could not have created the universe if He were only a part of it. The Bible says the universe cannot contain Him:

"Behold, heaven and the highest heavens cannot contain Thee... "(1 Kings 8:27)"The Almighty is beyond our reach." (Job 37:23)

According to particle physics and relativity, at least ten dimensions of space existed at the creation of the universe. Three of these dimensions (plus time) formed the space-time manifold that we can directly observe. The other six of these dimensions exist within the universe as incredibly compact dimensions of space. God must be able to operate in all of those ten dimensions plus more in order to have created the universe. A verse from the book of Hebrews suggests God created the universe out of some of the dimensions of space and time which are not visible to us:

"The universe was formed at God's command, so that what was seen was not made out of what was visible." (Hebrews 11:3)

The God of the Bible is invisible and cannot be seen except if He reveals Himself to us in a three-dimensional form that we can see. A being which exists in dimensions beyond our three spatial dimensions would be invisible to creatures (us) which can only exist in the confines of our universe:

But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" (Exodus 33:20)
When He passes me I cannot see Him. When He goes by, I cannot perceive Him (Job 9:11)
The Almighty is beyond our reach (Job 37:23)
No man has seen God at any time... (John 1:18)
No man has seen the Father... (John 6:46)
And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (Colossians 1:15)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God... (1 Timothy 1:17

The God of the Bible is described as omnipotent. If God were confined to three dimensions of space and one dimension of time, then He could be in only one place at one time. The God of the Bible is described as knowing all that we do:

Then hear Thou in heaven Thy dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart Thou knowest, for Thou alone dost know the hearts of all the sons of men, (1 Kings 8:39)
"As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts." (1 Chronicles 28:9)
For His eyes are upon the ways of a man, And He sees all his steps. There is no darkness or deep shadow where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. (Job 34:21-22)
Then Job answered the LORD, and said, "I know that Thou canst do all things, And that no purpose of Thine can be thwarted." (Job 42:1-2) Then the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and He said to me, "Say, `Thus says the LORD, So you think, house of Israel, for I know your thoughts.'" (Ezekiel 11:5)

We can hide nothing from God. A three-dimensional God would not have the ability to see through walls (Can you?) and could not know what happens outside of his sight.

Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time. Not only space, but also time has a beginning - at the moment of creation. Studies in particle physics have shown that our dimension of time is really only half a dimension, since time can only move forward (forget the time travel movies - this is scientifically impossible). If God existed in only one dimension of time, then He would have had to have been created at one point. The Bible says God was not created, but has existed from eternity past to eternity future. The Bible also suggests God created time and was acting before time began, confirming that God exists in at least two dimensions of time:

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)
This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)
The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)
To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

In addition, the Bible states God can compress or expand our time line, based upon what He wants to do. For God to turn a day into 1000 years and 1000 years into a day requires that He exist in at least two dimensions of time:

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Peter 3:8)
For a thousand years in Thy sight are like yesterday when it passes by, or as a watch in the night. (Psalms 90:4)

A three dimensional God would be unable to hear all of our prayers, since He could not be everywhere at once:

O Thou who dost hear prayer, To Thee all men come. (Psalms 65:2)
"And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you shall receive." (Matthew 21:22)

In addition, a three dimensional God could not perform any of the signs and miracles of the Bible, since He would be confined to the laws of physics of our three-dimensional universe, which make no allowance for miracles.

We cannot visualize a God who exists in dimensions beyond our own, but we can look at a model of a universe in which there are fewer dimensions than ours and extrapolate to that of an extradimensional God.

Contrary to what most people think, God does not want us to be religious. Jesus did not come to establish a religion. Indeed, He abhorred the religion of His day, which had been corrupted by the rules of men.

credit: godandscience.org

 

[Mythbuster]

So your trying to say that God is outside time ?

 

[FallingSkyward]

Good post. I believe in God, though have a hard time with religion. God may or may not care about how many people I sleep with, but that irrelevant to the question of "his" existence. Everything in your post as far as what God's omnipotence means is described perfectly. It's amazing how many people actually believe God is supposed to be physical(e.g. "yeah like I'm really going to believe some old man with a white beard is lording over us from above" )

Something is eternal. It is impossible for humans to grasp the concept of eternal and we would not understand an eternal entity. The concept of eternal will never be explained by science. All of science, all of everything that we percieve is based on the idea that something came first and caused something else to happen. We are categorically incapable of imagining any other system.

Without cause and effect, we are left with the very real possibilty of God.

 

[FallingSkyward]

So your trying to say that God is outside time ?

Yes. Time is only a dimension, you know. And because he is outside of our time/dimensions(and therefore logic), we cannot understand him.

 

[Mythbuster]

-If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic created God, is all-powerful and restrains God.
-If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator.

 

[ggazoo]

Thanks FallingSkyward... I just wanted to bring in a different point of view - the negativity around here is brutal sometimes.

So your trying to say that God is outside time ?

Pretty much... the Christian God exists both within and outside of our single dimension of time. Existing in at least two dimensions of time, God is not restricted to always following our time line, but can, through His second dimension of time, spend as much time as He likes at any point on our time line. This concept is stated biblically in 2 Peter:

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Peter 3:8)

Therefore, if 100 million people are praying to Him simultaneously, He is able to stay at that point in our time line for as long as necessary to hear and respond to their prayers.

 

[Mythbuster]

If God has logical thoughts then logic is more powerful than God. If God chose to create anything it must have had reasons to do so, therefore logic will have been dictating God's thoughts from the moment of God's inception.

If God's thoughts are logical from our Human point of view, then Human logic (as we know it) is a more powerful governor than God; if God exists it must therefore be a product of logic and therefore did not create logic. If God behaves according to logic that we don't understand (i.e.: Human logic is limited) then God is still behaving according to logic, even if it is logic we don't understand.

If God's thoughts behave according to no logic, then there are no absolutes. It would be possible for god to create a square circle (an all-powerful being that doesn't obey logic would be able to) just as much as any absolute is also obsolete, but this makes a mockery of all our religion, afterlife, lives, thoughts, everything, if this is possible. It means we are completely unable to predict anything of god. It makes god worthless to us, inaccessible.

God, although all-powerful, did not create logic. God requires logic in order to think or create.

 

[ggazoo]

-If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic created God, is all-powerful and restrains God.
-If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator.

Speaking of logic, take this into account:

The universe had a beginning in finite time at the moment of the Big Bang. How did this universe decide to create itself? How did the universe design itself with physical laws and parameters exactly fine tuned to support life? The laws of physics are designed with such precision that it is almost inconceivable that they could be the result of chance. For example, take the ratio of the number of electrons to protons. This ratio must be exactly equal to one to one to better than one part in 10³⁷ (10 to the 37th power, or "1" followed by 37 zeros), otherwise electromagnetic forces would have superseded gravitational forces and no galaxies, stars or planets would have ever formed in the entire history of the universe. So what's the likihood that the universe was created by chance?

Well, one part in 10³⁷ is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billion of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 1037.11

Other constants of physics, such as the expansion rate of the universe, are fine-tuned even more delicately, as small as one part in 10⁵⁵. Random chance does not design such a well-crafted universe. All the atheistic explanations for such an exquisitely defined universe require the presence of trillions of other universes, of which ours is the one which happened, by chance, to have the exact physics required for the formation of galaxies, stars and planets. Therefore the atheistic explanation actually goes against Occam's razor since it requires some mechanism by which universes can sprout from some super universe and randomly change their laws of physics. If one were to calculate the number of universes required, by chance, to have the exact physics required for the formation of galaxies, stars and planets, it would exceed 1010000 (talk about multiplying entities!). The mechanism by which physical laws could randomly evolve would add further complexity. Design by an intelligent designer is obviously a much simpler explanation. Check these papers for some of the other parameters for both the universe and our planet, which are designed to exact standards.

The statement that "the world stands above time" is false. The universe stands within time, having come into existence at time = 0. See Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time.

"Most theists agree that God has a nature. Then we must raise the question, who created God's nature? If we just accept that God has a nature and exists without a cause, why not say that the known world just is and that the laws of physics are what they are, without a cause?"

God is uncreated, therefore His nature is just as eternal as He is. Although it is possible the universe and the physical laws could exist without a cause, 1 in 10¹⁰⁰⁰⁰ is not exactly what one would call good betting odds. It would be much more likely that your car's engine would thermodynamically reverse itself (i.e., freeze solid instead of warm up) every time you started it.

So how logical is it that the universe was created by chance?

 

[Mythbuster]

-If "Human logic" is insufficient for metaphysics then debating for the existence of God is silly. Because it is by Human logic, thought and mentality that we arrive at the concept of God in the first place

-To say that god doesn't obey logical rules, to say that God could create a round square, for example, is to say that the abilities of god are abilities that cannot logically exist

-Beyond logic" is a synonym for "irrational", and admissions of beliefs that are beyond logic is an admission that such beliefs are irrational and logically indefensible

If God is beyond logic, is it not true that atheists are at least somewhat more rational and logical in their beliefs? It seems to be!

 

[FallingSkyward]

-If there is a logical reason why God exists, then logic created God, is all-powerful and restrains God.

right, but as stated, our logic does not apply to God.

-If there is no logical reason why God exists, then it holds that the Universe could exist for no logical reason and therefore require no creator.

wrong. The universe is not an metaphysical entity. The universe is confined to physics, therefore needing a beginning. God is not. As already explained, if He exists outside of our dimensions, outside of what we can understand, WE CANNOT UNDERSTAND HIM. The universe obviously does not exist outside of what we can explain logically.

 

[Mythbuster]

If God can make plans, think logically or exist, then logic is an arch-power that encompasses God and gives reason for god's existence which appears to refute the idea that God could be the creator of logic. The God as first-cause argument is partially undermined. If there is no logical reason why God exists then it is more likely that there no logical reason why the Universe exists, and that instead of assuming that the organisational force is a 'god', it's simpler and more rational to assume that it is the universe itself. It appears that whether God exists for logical reasons or not a fundamental contradiction occurs. The only answer is that creator-gods cannot possibly exist. Atheism is more logical. This is also true if God is placed "beyond logic". And if it is said that Human logic is incapable of realizing such metaphysical truths, then this also undermines any argument that can be made by one human to another, for the existence of god.

 

[FallingSkyward]

If God can make plans,

this statement is predicated on the notion that God thinks in our time.

think logically

again, to "think logically" in our way of thinking would require time as a component. If God is eternal, he is not restricted to time.

or exist, then logic is an arch-power that encompasses God and gives reason for god's existence which appears to refute the idea that God could be the creator of logic.

you're again assuming he "thinks" or "exists" in a way we can fathom. If our logic does not apply do God, than it has nothing to do with reason for his existence.

The God as first-cause argument is partially undermined. If there is no logical reason why God exists then it is more likely that there no logical reason why the Universe exists, and that instead of assuming that the organisational force is a 'god', it's simpler and more rational to assume that it is the universe itself. It appears that whether God exists for logical reasons or not a fundamental contradiction occurs.

What's the contradiction?

The only answer is that creator-gods cannot possibly exist. Atheism is more logical. This is also true if God is placed "beyond logic".

how?

And if it is said that Human logic is incapable of realizing such metaphysical truths, then this also undermines any argument that can be made by one human to another, for the existence of god.

No, because we are aware that there are probably other dimensions, and something existing outside of our dimensions would defy our logic; as a three dimensional figure would to a two dimensional figure. Impossible for a two dimensional figure to percieve anything of course, but being in four dimensions, we are confined; unable to grasp anything outside of what we exist in.

 

[pavlosmarcos]

But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!" (Exodus 33:20)
When He passes me I cannot see Him. When He goes by, I cannot perceive Him (Job 9:11)
The Almighty is beyond our reach (Job 37:23)
No man has seen God at any time... (John 1:18)
No man has seen the Father... (John 6:46)
And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. (Colossians 1:15)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God... (1 Timothy 1:17 ) .

We cannot visualize a God who exists in dimensions beyond our own, but we can look at a model of a universe in which there are fewer dimensions than ours and extrapolate to that of an extradimensional God.

so what I gather from this is god is unknowable, but an all powerful entity, that does not exist in our time.

just one question, how/why do so many people, in this bible believe they know so much about it.

 

[ggazoo]

so what I gather from this is god is unknowable, but an all powerful entity, that does not exist in our time.

just one question, how/why do so many people, in this bible believe they know so much about it.

How/why do so many people who don't believe in the Bible know so much about it?

 

[VitalOne]

Good post. It's a shame so many fools (Christian and non-Christian alike) believe that the Christian God is an old man with a beard in the sky when the Biblical scriptures give the exact opposite notion.

 

[geeser]

How/why do so many people who don't believe in the Bible know so much about it?

answer the mans question, instead of asking another question. or dont you have an answer.

 

[SnakeLord]

From a scientific standpoint, the Christian God exists in at least two time dimensions

Let me correct the blatant error for you: From a scientific standpoint, there is no evidence to suggest that any god, (christian or otherwise), exists anywhere.

Ok?

 

[The Devil Inside]

that is correct, snakelord.
i believe the reason to be that G-d is beyond man, and therefore is beyond anything our brains can comprehend. it is impossible to quantify infinity in any realistic way.

 

[ggazoo]

Let me correct the blatant error for you: From a scientific standpoint, there is no evidence to suggest that any god, (christian or otherwise), exists anywhere.

Ok?

Alright:

From a scientific standpoint, the Christian God could exist in at least two time dimensions.

 

[Mythbuster]

No, your imagination is beyond your self. I can create a god much more powerful then your god.