NMSquirrel,
“ Nope. Wisdom requires some sort of knowledge to make the best or correct choice or choices. There is no knowledge, no reasoning or logic involved. ”
you just contradicted yourself..lol..
Just wasn't clear enough.
Wisdom requires some sort of knowledge to make the best choice. There is no knowledge, logic or reason involved in definitions about god.
I didn't think I needed to add that, since that is the subject we have been discussing.
“ Originally Posted by jpappl
Correct, the value each of us assign to it. Which is subjective and it is also not truth. This is the problem. There is no truth in any of those statements. Because god is unknowable, we can not determine what value if any is in any of those statements. ”
we CAN determine the value of those statements to ourselves.
Yes. If you want to believe in them. But they don't have any truth in them. No facts, nothing of substance. Again, faith and faith only.
we cannot determine the value of those statements for others.
we cannot assign them a value that others would agree to.
Correct
the value is subjective to how YOU value them for yourself.
i cannot tell you any one is more valued to you than any other,that is your call..
IOW..do you believe the salesman when he tells you its worth X, or do you have an idea what a thing is worth to you..
Yes, so I would scrutinize the information to try and determine it's worth. But you are correct that it's your choice in the end.
truth can be subjective..
It can but it depends. How can there be any truth subjective or objective about god ? Since it is unknowable.
Only to yourself, which is just faith. A leap of faith because there isn't any knowledge.
i think the word i haven't used yet is 'discernible'..
do you make ALL your decisions with full knowledge?
or do you have some decisions you have to make a 'best guess' at,god is like that..all we get is a 'best guess'..
A guess correct. I know I am going to piss you off with this. But even the "best" part is not applicable. Since it implies that we have something to go on. We can put other factors in and even though we don't know the answer we can eliminate some things to arrive at a better or best guess.
With god, being unknowable, we have nothing to go on to make a better or best guess. It's just a guess or faith. You are choosing to believe because. That's it.
Is there anything wrong with admitting that you have faith only, never knowledge ?
Faith does not require religion, faith doesn't require any explanation, no definitions. It's for you, it's your belief.
“ I understand, I mean it's your life, if you have many friends that believe god is what you believe and that you can all get along etc etc then great. ”
actually i all my friends believe in god to one extent or another, and no we don't always agree..but we do agree that one should not force others to believe the same way..IOW you are entitled to your opinion,and i'm entitled to mine..when we die we will pry find out we were both right..
Sounds like you have some good friends.
Most of mine are atheist/agnostic. But I do have some close friends that are theists, we generally don't discuss god or religion anymore, because we have already hashed out where each other stands. We never try to convert each other.
Life is too short to bash each others beliefs.
“ How many of them are religious ? ”
i think only one is religious..(following the doctrine their church has put forth)
the rest are free thinkers..
Good to hear.
“ How many of them believe in the texts ? ”
not applicable as i shy away from ppl who treat the bible as a rule book..
IOW they see it the same as i, its a guide book.not a rule book..
Yeah, well we have been over this before. How can it be a guide regarding god ?
If you feel especially brave. Ask them how it can be a guide ? Then see the examples of claims of knowledge come out. You can play devil's advocate for a bit.
How many of them make statements of knowledge ? ”
everyone of them..and i understand it is only their opinion..
Do they know that it is only opinion ?
“ How many of them start to make definitions of god that they can not possibly know, yet make the claim anyway and then act as if anyone who disagrees is wrong ? ”
first part, all of them..
second part, none of them..
(i don't stay friend with ppl who are always telling me i'm wrong all the time)
Ok, so you just accept them as opinions and avoid anyone who takes themselves and their opinions on the subject too seriously. That is wise.
you want god defined..you know god cannot be defined, so that is your excuse not to believe..you do not have to justify that belief to anyone..some of us just like to argue (not me..lol)
I only want god defined by those who make statements of knowledge.
Yes, god can not be defined with any knowledge only belief.
I choose not to believe because there is no evidence for god, there is no reason to add something (god) that is not needed for us to go on our way. Other than that, I have no knowledge either way. I can't know if there is a god or not.
I do hope there is something else to it all. But there isn't any logical reason to believe there is or is not. We just can't know. So what will be will be. I don't need to believe in god for it to happen.
“ I will keep questioning as I have done for over 30 years on the subject. My philosophy is based on logic and reason. I also have no problem with theists, because basically, since the subject is unknowable, there is no logic or reason for me to make the claim that a god does not or can not exist. I can not know that. I do have issues with religious claims though. ”
thats good..keep questioning..god can utilize you wherever you are at..
(don't go there..you KNOW what i mean by that..)
I will play nice. Just you're belief. No problem.
“ Which is what we have been trying to separate this whole time. Being a theist without religion. ”
you put it like that makes it sound not right..lol..
joining a religion is NOT the only way to God..
the books that were not included in the canonization of the bible, says such.
(no i have not read those books,but i have heard enough about them to get a clue as to what is in them..)
I agree but as our discussion has shown, it's a lot easier said then done. They tend to be tied at the hip. But if you can pull it off more power to ya. I think, as I said before that you're wise to avoid those that want to force their beliefs on you or those that claim the only way.
Think for yourself, as you've said. That way you know what you believe.
