The Nature of Thought

Originally posted by ImaHamster2
...

“And speaking of memes... how resistant can a human be to them, providing we are cognizant when such a critter is at play?”

A human would be just as resistant as a human is to any idea, concept, theory, propaganda, or advertising jingle. Calling something a meme doesn’t make it better or worse or harder to resist.

...
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But couldn't certain memes be as dangerous as cancer is to a human body. Couldn't those memes propagate wildly through the human consciousness and reproduce out of control? And couldn't there be some types of memes that are as dangerous to the total human 'mind' as cancer is to the human body?

Look at Hitler. Wasn't he just a cancerous meme that almost destroyed a portion of humanity?
 
Species survival ...

'Forgetting' the actual pain of delivery results in a female being willing
to be be reimpregnated and reexperiencing childbirth.

Just a thought.
 
Imahamster2 the sequel ... or is it son (or daughter) of hamster? (trying to keep consistent with the life span of a mere hamster perhaps?)

In an animal context I would see it more as mini ecosystems that sometimes interact (communicate) and trade species. Certain ones can't find a niche and get killed off. Others can throw the whole thing temporarily out of balance and force an entirely new mix of creatures. The thing is in the long run synergy will win out and any bad memes which sap strength and don't contribute will run into a rich and fertile ecosystem robust to such critters and be over run. The main difference from your vision being the the more discrete yet interacting nature of the general framework. Certain amounts of spearation are essential to life though (membranes [organelles/cells] ... individuals ... speciation through the separation of populations ...).

Brain cells and selection through stress ... interesting idea. I actually went on a nueroscience retreat this weekend. Looks like I might actually start studying this stuff for real. I wonder if I've been infected with an interest meme through this topic. Anyways one of the speakers works on song learning in birds as a model system for learning and behavior more generally. He put forward this model of seasonal nueronal death and repopulation in the plasticity of bird mating songs in canaries and zebra finches. He actually argued that long term memories might require a more coherent and gross entity such as a whole nueron with connections to get maximal plasticity and stability. In these birds though the cycles of death and renewal are mediated by seasonal fluxuations in hormones that drive the process. But how do you decide which to kill? And if it happens in people when do you decide which to kill? Some continuity is necessary and at a certain level all memories are somewhat connected. In relation to drinking as killing off "weak nuerons", what chooses which ones become weak? Could it be that nuerons weaken through disuse (maybe Lamarck was just looking at the wrong kind of population)? A cell level elaboration of the current memory model ... also it is interesting to note that stress is also likely to occur during times when the animal is not acting in an adaptive manner or is in dire need of focused and coherent thought.

I don't know about the pain thing though. I remember actual physical pain although in the cases I can think of there was emotional anguish as well. I remember the specific feelings of pain very accurately. I can also remember specific moments of physical pleasure pretty disctinctly and since yin and yang tend to be surprisingly similar, I tend to think you can remember both. Then again there were typically emotions involved there too. That's not to say you necessarily have to in all cases. I can certainly imagine it being necessary to sometimes forget both emotional and physical pain to get on with life. In the reverse there have been times when emotional pain has manifested itself in feelings of physical pain. I can remember that too. There are certain times I know I felt pain of both types I can't remember very clearly. Maybe for some reason I tend to remember raw sensations more. I used to have an amazing memory and still do have a good one despite certain memory depleting habits (which were actually shared by a surprisingly large number of people at the nueroscience retreat [makes you wonder about people interested in thought and alternative ways to explore their consciousness]).
 
Re: memory of physical pain

I know of an instance of childbirth labor where a woman claims to have experienced an unusual and unexpected pain while being checked for cervical dilation. I’ll spare everyone from further graphic details. Knowing how the pain was inflicted however, suffice it to say that I have no reason to doubt that she could have felt extreme discomfort, and not of a sort that women typically experience while in labor.

She claims that for years afterward she was able to “re-live” the same pain. It usually required that she be dwelling on the incident, or just hearing others talk about giving birth for it to manifest, but occasionally would experience it “out of the blue.“ Either way, she felt it in the original location and described it as a slow-motion replay of the original sensation. Think of striking a match and how short a time it usually takes for the head to spark and the flame to catch. (Happens really quick--as was the original pain she felt, sudden and excruciating.) and then the “replay” pain was a slower, somewhat muted version, like slo-mo ‘video.’ She had time to brace herself, so to speak, when she felt it coming on

Again, without getting too detailed, she also re-experienced this pain occasionally during menstruation, and this version was more like the original pain experience. It occurred spontaneously, like a quick “flare-up” of a match head, felt “hot,“ and would even bring on a sudden wave of nausea (due to the intensity?).

Over time she learned how to fend off the memory-pain that had manifested whenever she ‘thought’ about the original experience. If she felt it coming on, she took a deep breath and mentally fought the memory while the sensations building in her cervix reversed themselves and subsided. The sharper sensation-memory experienced only during menstruation was never something she could control; although, it too happened less frequently as time passed. When it does reoccur however, she claims that it can do so with as much intensity as the original pain.

My speculation is that the ‘slo-mo’ memory brought on by dwelling on the original incident (intentionally or not) was the real memory, and that this memory did dim after a fashion with the passage of time, but that it was unique in nature as it seemed to require mental concentration to control a physical manifestation. In the other instance, perhaps some actual damage was done to her cervix, and that during menstruation a previously damaged area is sometimes aggravated in some manner.

They say that if a man wants to get an idea of what labor feels like, then try passing a kidney stone. (I’ve had a kidney stone, but can’t say that I can “remember” the pain of it.)

Perhaps there are certain types of pains, (a rare few), involving nerves that aren’t typically stimulated in an ordinary human body during an ordinary human life, and that when are harshly stimulated simply aren’t prepared for the traumatic ‘event.’ Perhaps a special memory is created in this kind of scenario?

Any ideas?
 
Counterbalence,

I guess these types of incidents beg the question what is a memory? Is it neural connections, is it some form of protein, or is it something else?

I would hazard a guess it is something far more complex and perhaps a composite of all of these and more.

Maybe this is why she was able to experience the pain just from remembering it. Maybe the neurons that where formed when her memory was made are now hardwired to the pain centers that reported her pain. Maybe that is why she feels the pain when she remembers the incident.
 
pain memory

Originally posted by Counterbalance
Re: memory of physical pain

She claims that for years afterward she was able to “re-live” the same pain. It usually required that she be dwelling on the incident, or just hearing others talk about giving birth for it to manifest, but occasionally would experience it “out of the blue.“ Either way, she felt it in the original location and described it as a slow-motion replay of the original sensation.
.......................................................................................................

I wonder if is possible for a single intense stimulation (sudden excruciating pain) to reach the threshold for memory creation, a new synaptic pathway, and then the memory of the event is the pain itself?...

Again, without getting too detailed, she also re-experienced this pain occasionally during menstruation, and this version was more like the original pain experience. It occurred spontaneously, like a quick “flare-up” of a match head, felt “hot,“ and would even bring on a sudden wave of nausea (due to the intensity?).
.........................................................................................................
parasympathic overactivity asssociated with intense pain?


My speculation is that the ‘slo-mo’ memory brought on by dwelling on the original incident (intentionally or not) was the real memory, and that this memory did dim after a fashion with the passage of time, but that it was unique in nature as it seemed to require mental concentration to control a physical manifestation.
.....................................................................................................

I agree with your speculation...
hmmm, and later she learn that by activating other brain circuits the pain memory can be blocked.


Perhaps there are certain types of pains, (a rare few), involving nerves that aren’t typically stimulated in an ordinary human body during an ordinary human life, and that when are harshly stimulated simply aren’t prepared for the traumatic ‘event.’
.......................................................................................................

In some cases of sudden intense pain a person may develop a neurogenic shock and it may cause even death (ex. uterine eversion after childbirth).
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I guess these types of incidents beg the question what is a memory? Is it neural connections, is it some form of protein, or is it something else? ...Maybe the neurons that where formed when her memory was made are now hardwired to the pain centers that reported her pain.
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Seeker, my understanding is limited at best. I recall that incoming information is encoded before stored, and that the best memory cues are those that were present during encoding. Based on any kind of criteria (categories, symbols, personal or formal meaning, rules, etc...) we supposedly have ’networks’ of ideas or of associated memories that help us organize it all, but I’m far from believing that we know even a fraction of what all memory involves. However, can’t help but wonder about the ability of a memory to be hard-wired to a pain center when hearing a story like the one above. If a special kind of protein is involved, (that was not known to be before), well hey, that’s just more interesting.

Shaman:

I wonder if is possible for a single intense stimulation (sudden excruciating pain) to reach the threshold for memory creation, a new synaptic pathway, and then the memory of the event is the pain itself?...
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(More rambling speculation on my part. Apologies in advance.) Pain is first detected by a sensory neuron, and the pain message is ‘flashed’ onward to the spinal cord, (connector neurons, motor neurons, effector cells all involved along the way and in the spinal cord itself), but no brain “activity” is involved yet as muscle cells will contract, say, when we burn our finger and a reflex arc occurs. A lot happens during a (pro-survival) reflex. The brain is being informed all the while, and the rest of the body is compensating, but the body is acting separately from the brain in the initial instance, (it’s believed), when the body encounters unexpected and/or severe pain.

The sympathetic branch of the nervous system momentarily takes over. Regardless of how brief a period of time, I wonder if normally imposed limits (anywhere in the nervous system) are less enforced during one of these extreme instances than at other times, perhaps due to sudden overload, or to a switching electro-chemical malfunction. That perhaps the body is capable of forming such unusual memories outside of the brain/mind, but that our species in general hasn’t evolved in such a way that doing so is part of the norm now. Maybe not everyone is capable of forming pain-memories. Most of us may have had the ability evolved out us--and can’t say as that might not be the best thing--again, this is just loose speculation. But was mankind ever so hardheaded that we needed actual pain-memories to teach us not to toy with the thorn bushes in the Serengeti? --We humans who are renowned for our resistance to learning the hardest lessons the first time around.

parasympathic overactivity asssociated with intense pain? ...hmmm, and later she learn that by activating other brain circuits the pain memory can be blocked.
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I wonder about that. Perhaps merely discussing childbirth experiences, or even hearing about them, created in this women a complex emotional reaction to the first ordinary mental memory of her own ordeal, and then this was further complicated/re-enforced by the physical (seemingly) memory that would accompany it (seemingly) unbidden. A mental act of will though seems to be what sets in motion the (assumed) parasympathetic event in this case. A sort of mind-over-matter thing. Willing herself to forget the memory?

Appreciate the feedback.

~~~

Counterbalance
 
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Backslash777...

Nice to know you’re enjoying the thread. Any opinions, questions, or “insights” of your own to share? I expect they would be welcome.

~~~

Counterbalance
 
pain and memory

Counterbalance:

Sudden (excruciating) pain overload may surpass neural gatekeepers?.

Quote:
" Usually, such pain is based on an initial event, like an amputation, that immediately caused a tremendous discharge of electrical and chemical energy along the nerves of the nervous system.
The experience changes the nervous system, just like learning. It's like a memory of pain that recurs again and again in the nervous system".

www.urmc.rochester.edu/pr/News/teaching.html

Quote:

" Synaptic plasticity in hippocampus is an extensively studied cellular model of learning and memory and recent studies suggest that similar mechanisms also apply to pain pathways and may account for some forms of hyperalgesia, allodynia and analgesia"

www2.neuroscience.umn.edu/plasticity/Sandkuhler.pdf
 
Very interesting...

Yang is focusing on a compound known as protein kinase C (PKC). Other scientists have created mice that lack the protein completely; those mice feel normal pain but seem immune to neuropathic or pathological pain.
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And other intriguing bits.

We believe that the pain no longer originates with the tissue that was originally damaged, but that it actually begins in the central nervous system, in the spinal cord and the brain," says Yang, a professor in the Departments of Anesthesiology and Pharmacology and Physiology. "The experience changes the nervous system, just like learning. It's like a memory of pain that recurs again and again in the nervous system." ...Yang is not the only one finding links between memory and pain. Earlier this year, scientists at Washington University in St. Louis reported that a protein that allows nerve cells to communicate may enhance perceptions of chronic pain. The team showed that mice with more NMDA receptors have enhanced memory and learning skills - they're smarter - but they're also more sensitive to pain. "This type of work reinforces the idea that the basic process that leads to memory formation may be the same as the process that causes chronic pain," Yang says.
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Mucho thanks, Shaman...

~~~

Counterbalance
 
If our thoughts and our cognitive capabilities are based upon the neural connections within our brain, then are the neural connections of idiot savants that much different than an average human beings?

Imahamster mentions that the addition of a math co-processor to facilitate mathamatics would be a nice addition to the brain in another thread, but do we really need one, or can we somehow tap into the same types of abilities that other human beings seem to have? Some humans, specific idiot savants, have capabilites such as photographic memory or the ability to do outrageous mathmatical calculations in their head faster than can be done on a calculator. These abilities are soley based upon their brains structure. Does anyone know how their brain structures differ from an average human's brain structure?

Also, if our thought processes and cognitive capabilities are based soley on our neural connections, how did the basic neural pattern a child is born with come to exist and how do we account for these strange abilities? Are they just the results of the random possibilities that can potentially occur because of the trillions and trillions of possible connections within our brains?
 
Seeker,

Zipped around on the Net for a short time this morning but haven't found anything yet that really addresses your specific questions and too much other stuff to tend to for now. Much emphasis is placed however on the visual imagery aspect of an idiot savant's 'memory', though there are a handful of "normal" people who have learned to calculate as quickly as the savant, and supposedly have done so by improving their ability to focus.

Like I said, this says precious little about their neural connections.

(But you learn good, Seeker. Keep poking at the Hamster and he will eventually get off his wheel. ;) )

Thanks...
 
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SeekerOfTruth, this hamster has read only a few descriptions of photographic memory or lightning calculators. This hamster suspects that no one knows what is going on, too few cases and too little good research.

This hamster has seen photographic memory described as the ability to recall a page of text in such detail that it could be read in one’s mind. Does this apply to pages that were casually scanned? This hamster doesn’t know the limits of the process but surely some apply.

Supposedly lightning calculators use mathematical algorithms any person could use. They apply an obsessive compulsion or focus beyond (thankfully) most humans. Their ability to do mechanical calculations far exceeds normal humans but pales in comparison to electronic processors. Neural nets are poorly suited to crunching computer algorithms. This hamster would rather use the brain for what it does well. Why turn a brilliant mind into a dumb calculator?

The basic neural architecture forms during development under the control of relatively few genes. The process is dependent on neural and environment stimulus. Micro level randomness yields macro level structure. (Scilosopher?)

UCSD biologists visualize protein gradient responsible for dividing embryo into nervous ...

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-02/cuco-rif020402.php

Researchers identify for the first time proteins vital to maintaining nervous system architecture

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-02/cuco-rif020402.php

(As CB implies hamsters are simple critters easily directed with prods and seeds.)
 
Thank you much for the seeds. I don't mean to prod, more like the nagging insistence of the young wanting to eat good seeds....:D
 
Pain ...

Interesting bit:

<a href=http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2002-02/yu-apw020102.php ><font color=red>Narcolepsy/Pain Related Peptide</font></a>

Take care.
 
Re: Savant Syndrome

Originally posted by Shaman
Is there a little Rain Man in each of us?

www.wismed.org/foundation/eachus.htm
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Possibly.

I just finished a very interesting article in the February issue of Discover magazine titled "The Inner Savant". The article is primarily about the work of Allan Snyder, the director of the Center for the Mind at the University of Sydney. He believes that savants directly tap into the human minds processing abilities without the process of conceptual thinking. He believes that savant abilities arise out of abnormalities or damage to the cerebellum. Another researcher has seen savant abilities arise in patients with frontotemporal dementia, a condition that causes "abnormally low blood flow or low metabolic activity in their left temporal lobed."

One researcher used "transcranial magnetic stimulation", a technique which uses a magnetic field to disrupt neuronal firing in the frontotemporal area of the brain. Of 17 volunteers, 5 showed an improvment at savant-type tasks such as drawing, calculating dates, and multiplying.

Snyder believes that it may be possible to utilize a combination of training and hardware to induce savant-like states in order to access savant-like abilities.

All in all it is an extremely intersting article.
 
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