exchemist
Valued Senior Member
Not sure what you hope to prove, here. I think it's clear that MR puts scientists somewhere below used car salesmen and real estate agents.
The Myth of the Noble Scientist
- Thread starter Magical Realist
- Start date
Not sure what you hope to prove, here. I think it's clear that MR puts scientists somewhere below used car salesmen and real estate agents.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Your hatred of scientists is right in line with your affection for ghost hunters.
The Scientific Process is the very antithesis of believing in ghosts.
You've made your choice.
[ EDIT ] Huh. Look likes exchemist made the same interpretation I did.
Yazata
Valued Senior Member
I probably would too, if 'above' simply means objectivity. Keep in mind that these categories can often overlap with scientists.
Plumbers.
Plumbers figure out why things aren't flowing properly and then they fix it. They know the properties of piping, air hammering and all kind of relevant things. They interact with reality as they encounter it.
And they don't speculate nearly as egregiously as scientific theorists so often do. They don't try to spin their hypotheses into cosmic metaphysics. And they aren't idealized by a large portion of the public as the paradigm of human cognition. Plumbing is a more modest profession, which might arguably be a good thing.
The point being that plumbers seem to inject less of themselves into their work product. Plumbing doesn't produce celebrities and stars the way that science does. (Einstein! Feynman!) Plumbers are more faceless, more interchangeable that scientists. It doesn't matter as much which one we are talking about. They just get the job done.
I think that I might put many of the skilled trades above science on the objectivity scale.
Last edited:
In the context of comparisons with other practices / professions, why should a negative reaction against science (or at least an over-glorified effigy and misconception of it created by some of its idolizers) even be so unexpected? Any collection of skills and jobs that has been lumped together under a general label, and promoted by some of its groupies and practitioners themselves as a replacement for traditional avenues of critical review and prescription making -- should not be surprised to likewise become a target of abusive propaganda. Just as those traditional customs and institutions had been for centuries (either covertly or publicly).
A variety of cultural and political factions come flocking to the shores of science to wrestle with it, due to its [anti-folk, anti-humanities, etc] proponents projecting this image of overarching authority upon it. Cults of creationists, for example, buy into and tweak that overarching authority perception as meaning that "science" is the new god on the block, and in response devise their own rival pseudoscience and misrepresentation of evolution to challenge the latter. As if here is yet another heathen or infidel agency that must be overcome in a long historical stream of them. Rather than regarding science (or subset of it) as a specialized class of work activities that could otherwise be as much ignored by them in their own internal communities as metaphysical, ethical, and social proclamations issued by welders, carpenters, hairdressers, bankers, etc.[*]
- - - - - - -
[*] Even Philip K Dick during the last half-century indirectly tossed religious fundamentalists a double-conception view of his own which could allow them to get along with science's depiction of the past. If they take the book of Genesis to be literal in the first place, then how could any "Can't we all just get along?" approach / offering get too outlandish for them?
Plumbers and other skill trades are absolutely essential, and respectable trades.
But what a plumber has to think about, test, etc when compared to what scientists have to think about, test, etc...is like comparing kids liitle league to professional baseball.
Magical Realist
Valued Senior Member
"MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.........Doughnuts!"
-Homer
Did he ever really have any? A question for the philosophers, I suppose...
From IceAura Post #30
Perhaps because they are more intelligent than you? Perhaps because you do not understand science?
Did you go to college? If so, was it one offered courses in science?
The liberal academics are in Departments like
BTW: Is liberal academic redundant? I think so!
The above remark is insulting. Why the bias against scientists?
Perhaps because they are more intelligent than you? Perhaps because you do not understand science?
Did you go to college? If so, was it one offered courses in science?
The liberal academics are in Departments like
The scientists are in departments like
BTW: Is liberal academic redundant? I think so!
Do you mean the opposite: that liberals have a reality bias? All passionate people of any type have anti-reality biases, whether liberals, conservatives or Magical Realists.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
I read it that way too, at first.
I believe he meant Reality as in: MR, as opposed to reality.
Read it again as a Proper name.
I was more referring to http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Liberal_bias
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Yes, but what about the word Reality?
how is that insulting most academics out side of some things like economics, history, statistics and some of the behaviorial sciences tend to be liberal. do you mean liberal arts? cause that still covers the sciences.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
OK. I misunderstood. I actually thought you were saying "Magical Reality has a well-known liberal bias."
Magical Realist:
Do you think it is important that scientists should be more virtuous than other people, Magical Realist? If so, why?
I am interested in what kind of value system you believe that science provides, though. Could you please outline the ways in which you believe science can be a value system?
Also, do you believe that scientists are more "egocentric" than other people, on average? Why would that be? And on what data do you base that assessment? You might like to compare for us the average drug dealer's egocentricity, or the average politician - or "ghost hunter" or celebrity psychic, perhaps.
I hope that you're not jealous of people who happen to have a science education, Magical Realist. That would be sad. It would be no different from being jealous of somebody with musical talent - or a bigger house than you. You might do better to be content with what you have, and strive to improve yourself if you feel you lack something, and to be confident in your own particular talents and education.
Are you saying we shouldn't try to make the world better?
Which dissent is being crushed by scientists? I'm sure you have something in mind. Is it your fondness for pseudoscience that is being crushed by evil scientists? Are they telling you what you can and can't believe? Are they torturing you? Are they preventing you from speaking up about ghosts and posting your ghost videos on the internet?
Can you explain some of the ways in which you believe scientists are crushing all dissent forever?
You can't blame scientists for saying what's scientific and what isn't, can you? Who else will do it if they don't? Who is more qualified? Who will tell us what is good music and what is trash, if not musicians? Who will produce the benefits of good music, if not the musicians? Who will treat the ill, if not doctors? Should doctors not tell us what medicine is effective and what is quackery? If they don't do it, who will? Who is more qualified?
Something to consider: what has Science ever done for you? Have scientists merely attempted to crush your rebellious spirit? Or have they, in fact, enabled you to live a potential lifespan that is twice as long as that of your great grandparents? Haven't they in fact given you the very platform that you are now using to write about how evil and selfish they all are?
And what have you done for them?
On average, there's no reason to suppose they would be. Scientists are human beings, just like everybody else. On the other hand, if you want to compare to certain other groups I think you could confidently say things like: the average scientist would be more virtuous than the average drug dealer or the average contract killer.
Do you think it is important that scientists should be more virtuous than other people, Magical Realist? If so, why?
Where's your data on this? You say this is "probable", but as usual from you I see only the opinions of two people in your opening post (apart from your own), based on anecdote.
I am interested in what kind of value system you believe that science provides, though. Could you please outline the ways in which you believe science can be a value system?
Also, do you believe that scientists are more "egocentric" than other people, on average? Why would that be? And on what data do you base that assessment? You might like to compare for us the average drug dealer's egocentricity, or the average politician - or "ghost hunter" or celebrity psychic, perhaps.
Professional scientists are an educated elite - in that particular field of expertise. But why single them out? Lawyers are educated in law. Scientists are educated in science. Musicians are educated in music. All of these people are elites in their own way. Snottiness, if they have it, is a human foible. I don't think it's intrinsic to science. Have you ever met a snotty musician who looks down on you because of your lousy shower singing? Maybe such a musician would view you as ignorant about basic voice production techniques and as a person with little to no musical instinct or training, in desperate need of some singing lessons. That's if the musician viewed music as some grand enterprise, I guess - to put it in your terms.
I hope that you're not jealous of people who happen to have a science education, Magical Realist. That would be sad. It would be no different from being jealous of somebody with musical talent - or a bigger house than you. You might do better to be content with what you have, and strive to improve yourself if you feel you lack something, and to be confident in your own particular talents and education.
Doesn't everybody want a better world?
Are you saying we shouldn't try to make the world better?
Which dissent is being crushed by scientists? I'm sure you have something in mind. Is it your fondness for pseudoscience that is being crushed by evil scientists? Are they telling you what you can and can't believe? Are they torturing you? Are they preventing you from speaking up about ghosts and posting your ghost videos on the internet?
Can you explain some of the ways in which you believe scientists are crushing all dissent forever?
You can't blame scientists for saying what's scientific and what isn't, can you? Who else will do it if they don't? Who is more qualified? Who will tell us what is good music and what is trash, if not musicians? Who will produce the benefits of good music, if not the musicians? Who will treat the ill, if not doctors? Should doctors not tell us what medicine is effective and what is quackery? If they don't do it, who will? Who is more qualified?
Something to consider: what has Science ever done for you? Have scientists merely attempted to crush your rebellious spirit? Or have they, in fact, enabled you to live a potential lifespan that is twice as long as that of your great grandparents? Haven't they in fact given you the very platform that you are now using to write about how evil and selfish they all are?
And what have you done for them?
Are you sure that there aren't plumbers who think that plumbing is some grand enterprise, with a snotty elitist view of plumbing who look down on humanity as ignorant and in desperate need of their guidance? (cf. Magical Realist's characterisation of scientists in the opening post, quoted in my last post above.)
I wonder about that time when Magical Realist called a plumber to have him look at the broken/blocked pipe/tap/toilet/sink and had the plumber shake his head and wonder at members of the general public who somehow can't manage to do the basics to look after their plumbing fittings as they should. And how the plumber tried patiently to explain the situation to Magical Realist with a slightly exasperated look on his face all the while, though MR just wasn't cottoning on to the subtleties of the number 4 plunger and the need for some caustic soda. And how the plumber tried to explain to MR exactly why that pipe got blocked up and why he would need a number 7 widget to unscrew that particular fitting. And all the while, he spoke with just a hint of condescension and where-in-the-world-would-you-be-without-me-here-to-help-ignorant-old-you, didn't he?
I think we'd all be better off without these elitist snotty plumbers trying to create a totalitarian utopia in which we're not allowed to pour the grease down the sink any more if we want to. Down with their absolute program for a better world, I say! I prefer a world in which my dissent is not crushed forever! I'll turn off the tap hard enough to break the washers if I want, and let's see them try to stop me!