The morality of God
- Thread starter Quantum Quack
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MW,
Thank you, I appreciate that.
This certainly makes more sense to me.
I also believe that we create our own "hell" here on earth.
This is true. What I have a hard time with is when christians prey upon others telling them how they are destined for hell because of how sinful they are etc.. you know the song and dance . I just don't think it's right for them to put fear into people like that.
I had never thought of it like that before, MW. Brilliant!
I agree with you fully . I do believe there are stories and scriptures in the Bible that one can learn and apply to their life ie. loving others Then there are others that totally make me cringe. I do not think there is ultimate truth in the bible. Like you, I feel there are many scriptures twisted and added in translation. Then there are the predated stories that have been adopted...
Thank you, I appreciate that.
This certainly makes more sense to me.
I also believe that we create our own "hell" here on earth.
This is true. What I have a hard time with is when christians prey upon others telling them how they are destined for hell because of how sinful they are etc.. you know the song and dance . I just don't think it's right for them to put fear into people like that.
I had never thought of it like that before, MW. Brilliant!
I agree with you fully . I do believe there are stories and scriptures in the Bible that one can learn and apply to their life ie. loving others Then there are others that totally make me cringe. I do not think there is ultimate truth in the bible. Like you, I feel there are many scriptures twisted and added in translation. Then there are the predated stories that have been adopted...
While I don't exactly agree with M*W synopsis, it's close enough: its not the body that sins, it's the body that becomes the tool of sin when the mind is bent on sinning. The "sin resistant body" is one acquired through Christ - "clothed with Christ", who was sinless. It's only through Him that such a body is available, and that is why God provided Him for everybody!
God did create us with holy bodies to begin with - sin defiles it. Remember, "holy" means dedicated to God and love. It implies separation from sin. Sin doesn't come from somewhere outside, so the only resistance we have is our willpower, which is constantly at war with temptation (or "negativity", as M*W would say).
There can be no solution until there is a problem. Sin isn't God's own problem, it's exclusively ours! Jesus was there with A&E in Spirit, but they didn't listen to God's warning. We weren't destined to sin, it was a choice - and still is. But we recognize that our choices aren't always informed, and our wills aren't always strong enough, and that's why we needed God's help.
The reason Jesus came to earth was precisely to take away our sins while in the body. Our lives are our conscience - if we don't realize our position while on earth, we might never have an opportunity to. It isn't a question whether God is powerful enough to take away sin "without the aid of Jesus" - that's similar to asking whether a person needs an arm to lift things. Jesus was the instrument of God's salvation - as He clothes our soul with God's Spirit, so He clothes our body whith His. God's love and salvation is represented in all spheres of existence, so that nobody has an excuse not to accept it.
*PS.
I would like to add for clarification, maybe you should be reminded that in the Jewish way of thinking "hell" is nothing but sheol, the grave - the result of natural death. Yes, we already have part of it on earth, in decay destruction, just as we have part of heaven, with love and life. God has conquered death beause He wants us to have life as He intended it, and He will eventually abolish death completely - but that means those who remain caught in it will share its fate, figuratively called the Pool of Fire, created for Satan and his angels and God's enemies. The other option is that God doesn't abolish death, and that everybody remains dead for all eternity, which goes completely against His creation and the promise of life.
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Jenyar,
You and I interpret what the Bible states Lake of Fire is differently. You might think that the Lake of Fire is figurative, but one thing they keep driving in is eternal torment. If a person simply dies and is placed in this grave and life ceases to exist (physically and spiritually), there wouldn't be torment of any kind.
In your mind, to be absent from god would be torment enough. However, if a person no longer existed this wouldn't effect them in the least, how could it? Time and time again the Bible mentions eternal torment, Jenyar. It appears you try to side step that every time we discuss it. Maybe I'm getting the wrong picture but, it's almost as if you think your god couldn't be capable of torturing someone for eternity when the Bible states otherwise.
You and I interpret what the Bible states Lake of Fire is differently. You might think that the Lake of Fire is figurative, but one thing they keep driving in is eternal torment. If a person simply dies and is placed in this grave and life ceases to exist (physically and spiritually), there wouldn't be torment of any kind.
In your mind, to be absent from god would be torment enough. However, if a person no longer existed this wouldn't effect them in the least, how could it? Time and time again the Bible mentions eternal torment, Jenyar. It appears you try to side step that every time we discuss it. Maybe I'm getting the wrong picture but, it's almost as if you think your god couldn't be capable of torturing someone for eternity when the Bible states otherwise.
Heart,
I think what you are refering to is selective reasoning ,where by a person reasons things in a seemingly logical way but selectively.
This is always evident when discussing religion and the main reason I have posted this thread "The morality of God"
The problem for me has always been that if I was to accept that God was a loving God then I can not accept the Bible because it depicts, in part,a very nasty God devoid of common justice.
So for me Christian ideology contradicts itself in such fundamental ways that it actually threatens any belief I might hold towards "God"
The same could be said for other religions of course.
I think what you are refering to is selective reasoning ,where by a person reasons things in a seemingly logical way but selectively.
This is always evident when discussing religion and the main reason I have posted this thread "The morality of God"
The problem for me has always been that if I was to accept that God was a loving God then I can not accept the Bible because it depicts, in part,a very nasty God devoid of common justice.
So for me Christian ideology contradicts itself in such fundamental ways that it actually threatens any belief I might hold towards "God"
The same could be said for other religions of course.
Jenyar,
While I don't exactly agree with M*W synopsis, it's close enough: its not the body that sins, it's the body that becomes the tool of sin when the mind is bent on sinning. The "sin resistant body" is one acquired through Christ - "clothed with Christ", who was sinless. It's only through Him that such a body is available, and that is why God provided Him for everybody!
Mind and Body- God created them both. Sure, he gave us free will, but this free will is integrated into a mind which may or may not already be "bent on sinning". The spark of free will that he gave each individual person must be the same "copy" of free will distributed to all. The only thing left to differentiate person from person is the mind and body....these were created by God also. So when you say that one's mind is bent on sinning, don't forget the God who did the bending. We just get what God gave us....what else could we have?
Sin isn't God's own problem, it's exclusively ours!
Sure, whatever you say. I suppose God wouldn't have it any other way. And the only tools we have to fight this problem are the ones God fashioned exclusively for us. But of course, it is still our problem. God made it our problem. Meanwhile he's up in heaven, basking in his own self-righteous juices.
Heart,
In your mind, to be absent from god would be torment enough. However, if a person no longer existed this wouldn't effect them in the least, how could it? Time and time again the Bible mentions eternal torment, Jenyar. It appears you try to side step that every time we discuss it. Maybe I'm getting the wrong picture but, it's almost as if you think your god couldn't be capable of torturing someone for eternity when the Bible states otherwise.
Very good point. Everybody seems to have there own interpretation of an established religion. I don't have a problem with the idea of simply fading away into nothingness. This seems like a fair end to God's faulty creations. Unfortunately, this isn't the picture that religion usually paints.
Conclusion: God created the mind, the body, the soul, free will, the moral standards, and the judgment process. Yet the blame of sins somehow gets shifted from God to the insignificant human. But I can deal with blame. It's the eternal torment that really bugs me though.
While I don't exactly agree with M*W synopsis, it's close enough: its not the body that sins, it's the body that becomes the tool of sin when the mind is bent on sinning. The "sin resistant body" is one acquired through Christ - "clothed with Christ", who was sinless. It's only through Him that such a body is available, and that is why God provided Him for everybody!
Mind and Body- God created them both. Sure, he gave us free will, but this free will is integrated into a mind which may or may not already be "bent on sinning". The spark of free will that he gave each individual person must be the same "copy" of free will distributed to all. The only thing left to differentiate person from person is the mind and body....these were created by God also. So when you say that one's mind is bent on sinning, don't forget the God who did the bending. We just get what God gave us....what else could we have?
Sin isn't God's own problem, it's exclusively ours!
Sure, whatever you say. I suppose God wouldn't have it any other way. And the only tools we have to fight this problem are the ones God fashioned exclusively for us. But of course, it is still our problem. God made it our problem. Meanwhile he's up in heaven, basking in his own self-righteous juices.
Heart,
In your mind, to be absent from god would be torment enough. However, if a person no longer existed this wouldn't effect them in the least, how could it? Time and time again the Bible mentions eternal torment, Jenyar. It appears you try to side step that every time we discuss it. Maybe I'm getting the wrong picture but, it's almost as if you think your god couldn't be capable of torturing someone for eternity when the Bible states otherwise.
Very good point. Everybody seems to have there own interpretation of an established religion. I don't have a problem with the idea of simply fading away into nothingness. This seems like a fair end to God's faulty creations. Unfortunately, this isn't the picture that religion usually paints.
Conclusion: God created the mind, the body, the soul, free will, the moral standards, and the judgment process. Yet the blame of sins somehow gets shifted from God to the insignificant human. But I can deal with blame. It's the eternal torment that really bugs me though.
I think it is also worth noting in addition to the words od Matnay, that we are also given the ability to question the creator (abstract). We also have the ability to rise above the God's espoused by us mortals.
For example My God (to use the title abstractly) is a much nicer more caring and loving "God" than that of the lesser faiths where the seem to get so hung up on sin and punishment, being old methods of containing the moral integrity of the masses.
My "God" however is no fool and can see the antiquity of Christianity and other religions as a way of dealing with fear and as a juvelnile attempt at solving our superstitious natures.
Why I don't follow Christianity is simply that it is obsolete and inferior to my "ideal"
I don't want to believe in a God that is an image of mankind, I want to believe in something that is so much better than us, This is my "God" my "ideal"
For example My God (to use the title abstractly) is a much nicer more caring and loving "God" than that of the lesser faiths where the seem to get so hung up on sin and punishment, being old methods of containing the moral integrity of the masses.
My "God" however is no fool and can see the antiquity of Christianity and other religions as a way of dealing with fear and as a juvelnile attempt at solving our superstitious natures.
Why I don't follow Christianity is simply that it is obsolete and inferior to my "ideal"
I don't want to believe in a God that is an image of mankind, I want to believe in something that is so much better than us, This is my "God" my "ideal"
I don't want to believe in a God that is an image of mankind, I want to believe in something that is so much better than us, This is my "God" my "ideal"
The creation of these popular religions were based on fear and control. This explains why the more lofty ideals are left out, and the ones that serve the fear factor are left in. Religion is basically good at spreading itself and gaining more followers. Religion was started out of negativity- the fear of death, to cope with hopelessness and sickness, to remedy a lawless society, etc. This negativity has soaked through and can still be seen all over religion; this is the reason why I hate it so much. Listen for the next time religion is brought up in your life. It will probably be when you are confronted with doing something wrong, when you are down on your luck, when you are having the hell scared into you at church, or when you sneeze. It's rare that God is brought up in a greater, more positive light.
Religion serves a purpose- the purpose of recruitment and control. It's methods are fear and guilt. Religion is uninspiring.
The creation of these popular religions were based on fear and control. This explains why the more lofty ideals are left out, and the ones that serve the fear factor are left in. Religion is basically good at spreading itself and gaining more followers. Religion was started out of negativity- the fear of death, to cope with hopelessness and sickness, to remedy a lawless society, etc. This negativity has soaked through and can still be seen all over religion; this is the reason why I hate it so much. Listen for the next time religion is brought up in your life. It will probably be when you are confronted with doing something wrong, when you are down on your luck, when you are having the hell scared into you at church, or when you sneeze. It's rare that God is brought up in a greater, more positive light.
Religion serves a purpose- the purpose of recruitment and control. It's methods are fear and guilt. Religion is uninspiring.
I have said this before but it may be worth saying again in support of your comments matnay ( although I think the word hate is an awful powerful word)
The greatest marketing method known to man is to
Create the demand for something and then supply the answer to that demand.
Relgion focuses on fear, recognises and generates the demand using this fear and rather conveniently supplies the answers.
How often have you been told that because you are a sinner by nature of your birth that the only way to become free of sin is to die believing in the Christ. Thus avoiding "hell"
A marketing method used to perfection.
Unitil people see it for what it is.
Scenario:
You don't know how dirty your carpet is so let me show you with this brand new vacuum cleaner, see, it's really dirty and of course if the carpet is dirty you may die from athsma or get allergies etc. so for your own benefit and that of your children you have to buy this vacuum cleaner, a matter of your health at stake.
If you don't you will be responsible for your childrens sickness.....
Do I need to go on......
The greatest marketing method known to man is to
Create the demand for something and then supply the answer to that demand.
Relgion focuses on fear, recognises and generates the demand using this fear and rather conveniently supplies the answers.
How often have you been told that because you are a sinner by nature of your birth that the only way to become free of sin is to die believing in the Christ. Thus avoiding "hell"
A marketing method used to perfection.
Unitil people see it for what it is.
Scenario:
You don't know how dirty your carpet is so let me show you with this brand new vacuum cleaner, see, it's really dirty and of course if the carpet is dirty you may die from athsma or get allergies etc. so for your own benefit and that of your children you have to buy this vacuum cleaner, a matter of your health at stake.
If you don't you will be responsible for your childrens sickness.....
Do I need to go on......
Quantum Quack,
I have said this before but it may be worth saying again in support of your comments matnay ( although I think the word hate is an awful powerful word)
The greatest marketing method known to man is to
Create the demand for something and then supply the answer to that demand.
Relgion focuses on fear, recognises and generates the demand using this fear and rather conveniently supplies the answers.
The sacrifice of Jesus has got to be the most sucessful advertising campaign ever achieved. As I wrote in another thread:
The sacrifice of Jesus still seems more like a show than a necessity. In the end, what significance does it give to religious people today? I get the impression that there is some sort of underlying guilt felt about Jesus's sacrific- that maybe Jesus "threw himself in front of the train" for us all, even though we don't deserve it. I also get the feeling- from hearing people constantly mention the sacrifice- of extreme thankfulness that He did so, and I see a sort of humbleness grows from this.
God's pre-calculated net result- Guilt, thankfulness, and humbleness- the three ingrediants for the perfect slave. God's purpose and meaning is clear to me- to recruit more followers. This reminds me of those "army of one" commercials.
I have said this before but it may be worth saying again in support of your comments matnay ( although I think the word hate is an awful powerful word)
The greatest marketing method known to man is to
Create the demand for something and then supply the answer to that demand.
Relgion focuses on fear, recognises and generates the demand using this fear and rather conveniently supplies the answers.
The sacrifice of Jesus has got to be the most sucessful advertising campaign ever achieved. As I wrote in another thread:
The sacrifice of Jesus still seems more like a show than a necessity. In the end, what significance does it give to religious people today? I get the impression that there is some sort of underlying guilt felt about Jesus's sacrific- that maybe Jesus "threw himself in front of the train" for us all, even though we don't deserve it. I also get the feeling- from hearing people constantly mention the sacrifice- of extreme thankfulness that He did so, and I see a sort of humbleness grows from this.
God's pre-calculated net result- Guilt, thankfulness, and humbleness- the three ingrediants for the perfect slave. God's purpose and meaning is clear to me- to recruit more followers. This reminds me of those "army of one" commercials.
So you think Jesus may have just had a bad case of the Messiah Complex? Or maybe a lot of other people suffered a defacto Messiah Complex by believing in him?
Today he would probably be committed to an institution for the mentally aberrant?
And most ironically by the church he generated.
Today he would probably be committed to an institution for the mentally aberrant?
And most ironically by the church he generated.
I didn't say it wasn't eternal. I'm just saying the Lake of Fire is a figurative way of describing the eternal consequences. Let me put it another way. If the application of justice, judgement, could be called a "fire", and the court/penal system was a symbolical "lake of fire", then as long as a person is guilty and "under judgment", he is confined to this "lake of fire". Once you're found guilty, the guilt never leaves you. For instance, if you've stolen something, you will always be guilty of "having stolen something". It is only in the eyes of a third party that you can be forgiven or seen as guiltless.
Whether those being judged are "alive" or "dead", or can feel pain or separation is really not the issue. We know two things: the judgement is final and therefore eternal, and that we won't exist as physical beings anymore. Even energy never fades into nothingness, why should beings who were given life by God's energy? Sp whether you are alive or dead by present standards - if you are conscious of any existence that will be enough to constitute hell. Think about it, a baby doesn't ask to be born - life is simply thrust upon it. Our present life is the womb from which we will be born into the next. It means: you exist, deal with it.
As I've said, that's like saying "if I wasn't born, I wouldn't have had to deal with this or that" or "this or that wouldn't have been possible". Eternal torment is at least life without God, or life under God's righteous judgment. I don't even want to imagine what it could be on top of that. And for sure it's eternal. The images used by the Biblical authors, like the Hinnom valley (Gehinnom), were real places. Gehinnom was a place where children were sacrificed to the god Molech, and where all the rubbish of Jerusalem was burnt; there was always fire (The Valley of Hinnom.
Are you being tortured right now? Is it God who is torturing you? Think hard about it. You were born, it isn't a punishment or blessing - it's a fact. God wished for you to have life, it was a gift of love. But as death is to this world, so hell is to the next. It isn't God torturing anybody - it's the nature of such an existence.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jenyar,
I'm just saying the Lake of Fire is a figurative way of describing the eternal consequences
What leads you to believe that the Bible's mention of this lake of fire is meant to be taken figuratively? Is that just what you'd like to believe? And where would one draw the line between what is to be taken literaly in the bible, and what is to be taken figuratively? Perhapes God meant the devil to be taken figuratively as well.
I'm just saying the Lake of Fire is a figurative way of describing the eternal consequences
What leads you to believe that the Bible's mention of this lake of fire is meant to be taken figuratively? Is that just what you'd like to believe? And where would one draw the line between what is to be taken literaly in the bible, and what is to be taken figuratively? Perhapes God meant the devil to be taken figuratively as well.
I'll let you follow my reasoning and you can decide for yourself.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Since death and Hades are abstract terms, it follows that the lake of fire is figurative. You can't "throw" death, and it certainly won't fit into a regular lake. We know that the concept comes from the burning of human sacrifices in the Hinnom Valley (2 Chron. 28:3) which explains the image used. But regular fire only occurs on earth, in the presence of oxygen, and since the lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels and the elements themselves will be destroyed (2 Peter 3:10), we can safely assume it wasn't prepared on earth, and has no physical connection with the fires in the Valley of Hinnom. Hades was supposed to exist beneath the earth, but we see even it will end up in this Lake of Fire.
On the other hand, we have evidence that connects it with the figurative meaning:
Isaiah 30
33 Topheth [Also in the Valley of Hinnom: 2 Kings 23:10]
has long been prepared;
it has been made ready for the king.
Its fire pit has been made deep and wide,
with an abundance of fire and wood;
the breath of the LORD,
like a stream of burning sulfur,
sets it ablaze.
Isaiah 33
11 You conceive chaff,
you give birth to straw;
your breath is a fire that consumes you.
12 The peoples will be burned as if to lime;
like cut thornbushes they will be set ablaze."
14 The sinners in Zion are terrified;
trembling grips the godless:
"Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire?
Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?"
Of course, nothing prevents you from still taking it literally. It still is a very real reality anyway. Even a figurative lake of fire has to pertain to something that fits the metaphor. But limiting it to a physical fire and bodily torment is a mistake, IMO.
Jenyar,
I think it matters and that is my whole point. Many times in the Bible when hell or Lake of Fire is mentioned there is torture, pain, and punishment that is involved. Burning, thirsting for just one drop of water to cool the tongue, you have your memory, weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth etc
The Bible even talks about how it's better to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand if they cause you to sin, than to be in hell.
My point is "god" is the one that created hell/Lake of Fire in the first place, knowing full well that those who aren't "saved" will end up there. You call this justice...I say it's BS. Just like killing those innocent children during The Flood ETC I would think a true god would be above barbaric acts.
I think it matters and that is my whole point. Many times in the Bible when hell or Lake of Fire is mentioned there is torture, pain, and punishment that is involved. Burning, thirsting for just one drop of water to cool the tongue, you have your memory, weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth etc
The Bible even talks about how it's better to pluck out your eye or cut off your hand if they cause you to sin, than to be in hell.
My point is "god" is the one that created hell/Lake of Fire in the first place, knowing full well that those who aren't "saved" will end up there. You call this justice...I say it's BS. Just like killing those innocent children during The Flood ETC I would think a true god would be above barbaric acts.
Evidently it's a place you have to avoid at all costs. Remember how I said hell is the death of eternal life? Maybe that's how it feels. If you could physically see the lake of fire below you, and you could physically see the bridge called Christ stretched over it - if the were as real to you as the Grand Canyon, you wouldn't have complained. You would have told me to accept reality and quit living on faith. If you miss God's salvation you inherit death, and if you aren't recorded in his book of life you will go where death goes. Death might not have been so bad, except that you owe your life to God. When death is destroyed, only life remains - your choices here on earth determines where.
You're wrong to think it's justice: it is fact injustice - the injustice of the lie that God didn't save you. He sent his Son to save you from exactly such an end, because He knows we weren't meant for hell - He created us to live after all.
It isn't just because you aren't "saved" that you end up in hell - that's classic TV theology - it's beause you die, and if you die without God, who will save you? You are being accused of stealing life from God, who will defend you if it's true?
Those who have no idea of what being Christian means - they are just as trapped by fear as anybody else. You become a Christian when you realize God's love for you extends past anything you might have done to deserve death. But if you say you don't deserve death and you die anyway (as you expect to), then who is the liar?
Do you know what the real problem is? People aren't afraid enough of God. They are so intoxicated with the freedom of choice - of being able to deny God and reject what He did for us that they'd rather hope that this life is all there is and believe themselves. You'd rather entertain yourself with arguments against His mercy than to at least admit that if He does exist, He did give you a fair chance.
The lake of fire (eternal fire) and hell (hades/sheol) aren't the same thing. Hell is the result of sin - death, and it gets thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:14). Death would have had no hold on us if we weren't separated from God's life. And if we accept God's life, it won't have any hold on us. But accepting it means believing in Him, and are you prepared to do that?
It's really not that complicated. It comes down to this: who do you belong to? If you believe nature treats you fairly and justly, then you can die convinced that the death it presents you with will be the same as the life it gave you. You belong to yourself, and you will follow your body wherever it goes. Or you can belong to God, who gave you this life, and follow Him to wherever He promises to take you.
Satan is the "god" of this world. Death and sin against God are his biggest weapons. He represents the natural choice. What he doesn't tell you is that God meant it when he said such a choice will lead to death. Whatever hell might mean - torment, or separation from life, or reincarnation - it is the natural result of not choosing God. Do you have a right to complain that God did not butter your bread on both sides? Is it "unfair" that only the giver of life can give life?