The morality of God

Quantum Quack

Quantum Quack

Life's a tease...
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Often God is used as an Ideal

If we asume that mankind is in some way a reflection of God then does this suggest that God is also trying to achieve the perfection of his morality as we are attempting to do?

Or is God perfectly moral?

What would be an indicator of perfect morality? What is the ideal?
May be this question is to big to answer thus impossible but if we don't know the Ideal to aim for how can we get there?

Are we just floundering in the dark trying to find a more moral state without any real ideal to aim for?
 
God's morality is based on love - which is mercy and justice in perfect balance, as it is in Him. But our existence, being in God's image, is based on uniqueness and individuality. That means we must work to that which in God comes naturally. We don't act as one humanity by nature - it must come though a process of learning and understanding.

No, God is not the ideal. The image of God is the ideal - His laws are in turn images of that ideal. Perfection means becoming truer to who we are.

An example: traffic law is not the ideal - it presents an image of the ideal of eventual complete road safety. Seen in isolation, traffic laws are legalistic and meaningless, but in view of their end, they can be adopted and grow to become a moral standard that includes things like attitude, patience and tolerance. Traffic laws don't intend to make motorists act more like pilots - pilots have their own system, but in the end their laws have the same goal as all other laws - safety and "arriving alive".

Paul called the Law accordingly, "the teacher of righteousness". Without such a moral standard, we are in the dark. The Ten Commandments are an example of how such laws are adopted and applied by Israel, while they recognized God as its author. They were the guide provided the legal framework, the shadow, by which the intention - the real thing: love for each other and for God - could be understood.
 
Jenyar,

God's morality is based on love - which is mercy and justice in perfect balance, as it is in Him.

God should keep his morality to himself. Human morals are based on something even more important than love- human understanding. God is not human, does not have to live as we do, and therefore his morals should not apply to us. Why doesn't God just create other Gods like himself, become the ruler, and apply his morals to that system. But God isn't looking to make campanions, he prefers the worship of slaves. It's pretty pathetic if you ask me; like someone who prefers the company of pets to other people. But thats not a good analogy of course, because no pet owner would ever think about sending his furry friend to hell.

God's morality consists of "mercy and justice in perfect balance". Maybe that's the problem, that God thinks he needs to keep the two as opposite counterbalances of eachother. That does explain why so many people go to hell. Hell is just a counterbalance to heaven I guess.
 
Originally posted by matnay
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God should keep his morality to himself. Human morals are based on something even more important than love- human understanding. God is not human, does not have to live as we do, and therefore his morals should not apply to us. Why doesn't God just create other Gods like himself, become the ruler, and apply his morals to that system. But God isn't looking to make campanions, he prefers the worship of slaves. It's pretty pathetic if you ask me; like someone who prefers the company of pets to other people. But thats not a good analogy of course, because no pet owner would ever think about sending his furry friend to hell.

God's morality consists of "mercy and justice in perfect balance". Maybe that's the problem, that God thinks he needs to keep the two as opposite counterbalances of each other. That does explain why so many people go to hell. Hell is just a counterbalance to heaven I guess.
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M*W: matnay, I generally believe and agree to your comments as we think along the same lines, but I have a "counter" comments. Since I see God as an energy field without personality, identity, morals or the ability to make decisions, I just can't understand why this force of positive energy could banish anyone to hell. It seems to me that hell wasn't created by "God" but by humans as a counterbalance. Hell, to me, would be a force of negativity dwelling in one's heart. If not negativity, hell to me would be a vacuous existence without positive or negative energy. I would think it would deem one without a soul per se. Negativity would create a really bad person. This is hell, but also the absence of positive or negative energy would be hell, but it could also be like a state of limbo. In any event, I don't believe heaven and hell are someplace we "go to." It's what we reap in this life and take with us in our spirit to the next. I don't think God is necessarily all that complicated to understand. It's what WE make of the positive energy we are given and not what a Supreme High Judge will do TO US if we break the rules. Only we can right our own wrongs.
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Actually Medicine woman you have posed a question that started my quest so many years ago.

Did God create man or did man create God?

Funnilly enough you will probably find that the answer is neither,

(some little alien sitting in the clouds playing God and with every ones minds) (I am joking ....of course........oooorrrr ammmm IIIII??)
 
Originally posted by matnay
God should keep his morality to himself. Human morals are based on something even more important than love- human understanding. God is not human, does not have to live as we do, and therefore his morals should not apply to us. Why doesn't God just create other Gods like himself, become the ruler, and apply his morals to that system. But God isn't looking to make campanions, he prefers the worship of slaves. It's pretty pathetic if you ask me; like someone who prefers the company of pets to other people. But thats not a good analogy of course, because no pet owner would ever think about sending his furry friend to hell.
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God did become human to show how we should understand each other, and understand Him. And we were slaves before we had this understanding. Slaves of our natures. And as M*W said - it's our natures which send us to hell.

God's morality consists of "mercy and justice in perfect balance". Maybe that's the problem, that God thinks he needs to keep the two as opposite counterbalances of eachother. That does explain why so many people go to hell. Hell is just a counterbalance to heaven I guess.
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How do you know how many people go to hell? Are you God? You experience His mercy every day, but you don't recognize it.
 
Jenyar,

it's our natures which send us to hell
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The Bible states that our flesh is weak, with that in mind..why would "god" design us this way if it would lead most to hell/lake of fire for all eternity? I'd might buy the "God did this so we could become stronger spiritually etc" BUT, the fact that if one doesn't choose his path will mean eternal suffering causes me to believe that this god is cruel.
 
Originally posted by heart


JENYAR: Let me make myself clear. Hell is not someplace we "go to." The state of hell or heaven is WITHIN. We are responsible for whichever state we live in DURING our lifetime--not after. Afterlife is a waiting place, the depot of our soul. Our "baggage" is what we take with us when we "travel" between humanness. Ideally, we would want to unload some of that "baggage" while we walk the Earth, otherwise, we'll take it with us through the next journey.

MATNAY: Our "flesh is weak" statement means to me that our flesh is disposable. I don't believe it has anything to do with sin, say "of the flesh" like sex, for example. Our flesh is weak because it is corruptible--it results in genetic decay. I like this phrase a lot more than "death." There is no true "death." That would be final. There is no finality to the soul. I think the idea of hell has been misrepresented by xians. They believe it comes after life. I believe it is here and now. I also believe that "God" doesn't cause the judgment or the suffering, we do that to ourselves. It was good to hear from you again.
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Originally posted by heart
Jenyar,

The Bible states that our flesh is weak, with that in mind..why would "god" design us this way if it would lead most to hell/lake of fire for all eternity? I'd might buy the "God did this so we could become stronger spiritually etc" BUT, the fact that if one doesn't choose his path will mean eternal suffering causes me to believe that this god is cruel.
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No heart, you've got it wrong (and so does M*W). The passage in the Bible states:

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[the flesh] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
(if this is too confusing, read the whole of Romans 8)

The "weakness of the flesh" is an expression that indicates our physical existence makes it possible for us to ignore our spiritual inheretance. The moment God ceases to be a reality in your life, you are bound by a physical "I evolved from a rock" existence. Even if it's true that we evolved from primordial soup, that doesn't mean that God had no hand in our existence - especially our spiritual existence (because God is Spirit). Some people presume spirit and energy are the same thing, but it's a limited analogy at best.

It's a fact that everything that is natural eventually decays and dies. That is its "weakness". Paul compared this natural decay to a state of living in sin, and Hell becomes a spiritual destination of death itself - and he presents God as the salvation from such an existence. You can't blame God for death if you don't believe in Him, and if you believe in Him (i.e. listen to Him) you are saved from death. Physical suffering is just a sign that nature has no power, no laws to protect us from itself or ourselves. That realization might lead to greater spiritual awareness, but without God that's still useless information.

God designed us in his image, but with physical bodies. Where God can act, we have hands; where God can move, we have legs; where God can listen; we have ears. But at the same time we have the ability not to listen to God, not to act according to his will, not to conform to His image - our priviledge is our weakness. It isn't weak by itself, it's weak because we misuse and misapply it. When we don't - when we love God and each other with all our hearts, mind and strength (see the connection?) - we fulfill the law, and death has no hold over us.
 
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Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
JENYAR: Let me make myself clear. Hell is not someplace we "go to." The state of hell or heaven is WITHIN. We are responsible for whichever state we live in DURING our lifetime--not after. Afterlife is a waiting place, the depot of our soul. Our "baggage" is what we take with us when we "travel" between humanness. Ideally, we would want to unload some of that "baggage" while we walk the Earth, otherwise, we'll take it with us through the next journey.

MATNAY: Our "flesh is weak" statement means to me that our flesh is disposable. I don't believe it has anything to do with sin, say "of the flesh" like sex, for example. Our flesh is weak because it is corruptible--it results in genetic decay. I like this phrase a lot more than "death." There is no true "death." That would be final. There is no finality to the soul. I think the idea of hell has been misrepresented by xians. They believe it comes after life. I believe it is here and now. I also believe that "God" doesn't cause the judgment or the suffering, we do that to ourselves. It was good to hear from you again.
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Who does your soul belong to? To your own self - the divine nature you think is God - or to God who created you? They can't be the same thing, because one precludes the other.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
Who does your soul belong to? To your own self - the divine nature you think is God - or to God who created you? They can't be the same thing, because one precludes the other.
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My portion of the One Spirit of God IS God--one and the same. It's only on loan to me for hopefully 70-80+ years. They CAN be One and the same.
 
Jenyar,

I'm not quite clear where you are coming from or what you are meaning. According to the Bible god did design our "flesh" to be weak, otherwise we wouldn't be effected by temptations. Let me try to put it this way. Once christians shed their bodies and go to heaven, what will keep them from sinning? They will no longer have "fleshly" desires, right?

I realize you have stated in the past that god won't tolerate sin in heaven- BUT, that didn't keep Lucifer from sinning. Yikes, I'm getting off into 2 different topics and not meaning to, sorry
 
MW,

I think the idea of hell has been misrepresented by xians. They believe it comes after life. I believe it is here and now. I also believe that "God" doesn't cause the judgment or the suffering, we do that to ourselves
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I couldn't agree with you more. I also think that hell has been used as a means to control others..no matter how it's sliced -it's still ugly and stinks -as well as false.

Take care
 
Originally posted by heart
MW,

I couldn't agree with you more. I also think that hell has been used as a means to control others..no matter how it's sliced -it's still ugly and stinks -as well as false.

Take care
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It's always good to hear from you!
 
I also believe that "God" doesn't cause the judgment or the suffering, we do that to ourselves
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This sounds just like reincarnation and karma which proposes that our actions are responsible for the type of life that we have, not god.
 
Originally posted by heart
Jenyar,

I'm not quite clear where you are coming from or what you are meaning. According to the Bible god did design our "flesh" to be weak, otherwise we wouldn't be effected by temptations. Let me try to put it this way. Once christians shed their bodies and go to heaven, what will keep them from sinning? They will no longer have "fleshly" desires, right?

I realize you have stated in the past that god won't tolerate sin in heaven- BUT, that didn't keep Lucifer from sinning. Yikes, I'm getting off into 2 different topics and not meaning to, sorry
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God created flesh to add a physical dimension to life, to "live out" life according to its intention. When the first computer was made, it wasn't made to harbour viruses and to steal money electronically - those were ingenious exploitations of its power contrary to its intended function. Its strengths, adaptability and potential, was also its "weakness". The same with the body.

You see, heart - it's the will that sins, by exploiting and perverting the body's natural potential - branding it "weak", by posing its weakness as a strength, and reversing the divine order of things. Sin is nothing but abuse.

Your other question: we will be given holy bodies, uncorrupted and uncorruptable by sin - their will be nothing to abuse. The will to sin has been taken away by Christ, but while on earth the sin-filled body still presents a temptation. This is the "two natures" Paul described in Romans.
 
Originally posted by Jenyar
God created flesh to add a physical dimension to life, to "live out" life according to its intention. When the first computer was made, it wasn't made to harbour viruses and to steal money electronically - those were ingenious exploitations of its power contrary to its intended function. Its strengths, adaptability and potential, was also its "weakness". The same with the body.

You see, heart - it's the will that sins, by exploiting and perverting the body's natural potential - branding it "weak", by posing its weakness as a strength, and reversing the divine order of things. Sin is nothing but abuse.

Your other question: we will be given holy bodies, uncorrupted and uncorruptable by sin - their will be nothing to abuse. The will to sin has been taken away by Christ, but while on earth the sin-filled body still presents a temptation. This is the "two natures" Paul described in Romans.
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M*W: Sin is the displacement of positive energy with negative energy in our soul. The total displacement of positive energy can be a vacuous state, neither + or -, but leading to a complete state of negativity. This is not good. Total negativity would result in genetic decay of the body from the absence of the soul. You are partially right when you call sin abuse. This is what we do to ourselves (our spiritual selves).

When genetic decay occurs, we will NOT be GIVEN "holy bodies...", we will simply be in the spiritual state that lived within our physical bodies. That doesn't die, it just returns to the One Source. Jesus didn't take away sin. YOU are still responsible for your own sin. This is my point of contention. All you xians need to be accountable to God, your Creator, for your own sins. xianity is a cop-out. The "sin-filled body" as you say is temptable. I would say that our physical body is subject to decay and therefore corrupt due to its make-up and has nothing to do with sin or temptation. The "two natures" are the physical and the spiritual. However, I don't even like quoting Paul.
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Jenyar,

When the first computer was made, it wasn't made to harbour viruses and to steal money electronically - those were ingenious exploitations of its power contrary to its intended function.
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God is suppose to be omniscient, is he not? So are you saying that god intentionally put us in a body that has a hard time resisting temptation? The cruel part comes in when god created hell knowing full well that it would be cast into the Lake of Fire, where all "sinners" will suffer for eternity. Not only this...but, you're also saying that once a christian dies and goes to heaven they won't have to worry about sinning because god has designed a sin resistant body? Why not create this holy body, or something on that line, to begin with? Also, you state that Jesus is what takes away the will to sin... Don't you think there could have been a better solution to begin with say prior to the "fall" of Adam and Eve? If Jesus is the only one who can take this away, after a person dies, why not while one is still in body? Also, why didn't god send jesus down prior to A&E taking a bite of the fruit? For that matter, why isn't God powerful enough to be able to take this will to sin away without the aid of Jesus?

I could go on all day and ask questions. I just see that there were better solutions.
 
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