The misogyny of the early Christian church

[Randwolf]

Randwolf, i dont have time right now to go through that list. Based on the first one, do you consider that a real source in that you are satisfied with that?

As you so astutely observed I have not tracked an original source for the first quote. I have gotten one more further back so far: St. Clement of Alexandria from The Tutor, as quoted in “The Natural Inferiority” of Women compiled by Tama Starr (New York: Poseidon Press, 1991) p. 45 I will keep looking. Same goes for the third and fourth quote. Let me know what you find on your end.

 

[arauca]

Here are a few sources:

"Every woman should be filled with shame by the thought that she is a woman...the consciousness of their own nature must evoke feelings of shame" Ranke-Heinemann, Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven: p127,130 attributed to St. Clement of Alexandria (2nd Century, Greek Father of the Church)

Women are "the devil's gateway." "And do you not know that you are (each) an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age:83 the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil’s gateway:" Tertullian (2nd Century, African Father of the Church), "On Women's Clothing", 1:1

"Woman is the root of all evil." Knight, Honest to Man: p120 attributed to St. Jerome (4th and 5th Centuries, well known scholar)

"It does not profit a man to marry. For what is a woman but an enemy of friendship, an inescapable punishment, a necessary evil, a natural temptation, a domestic danger, delectable mischief, a fault in nature, painted with beautiful colors?...The whole of her body is nothing less than phlegm, blood, bile, rheum and the fluid of digested food ... If you consider what is stored up behind those lovely eyes, the angle of the nose, the mouth and the cheeks you will agree that the well-proportioned body is only a whitened sepulchre." Knight, Honest to Man: p121, attributed to St. John Chrysostom (4th and 5th Centuries, Bishop of Constantinople)

"I don't see what sort of help woman was created to provide man with, if one excludes procreation. If woman is not given to man for help in bearing children, for what help could she be? To till the earth together? If help were needed for that, man would have been a better help for man. The same goes for comfort in solitude. How much more pleasure is it for life and conversation when two friends live together than when a man and a woman cohabitate?" Thomas Aquinas, following St. Augustine (5th Century, Doctor of the Church and Bishop of Hippo), De genesi ad literatum 9, 5-9

"Woman is a temple built upon a sewer." Anicius Boethius (6th Century Christian Philosopher), The Consolation of Philosophy

"Good order would have been wanting in the human family if some were not governed by others wiser than themselves. So by such a kind of subjection woman is naturally subject to man, because in men the discretion of reason predominates." St. Thomas Aquinas (13th Century), Summa Theologica I, qu. 92, art. 1, ad 2.​

This guys were the intellectuals of their time . And for me they were the top of stupidity . In the past I had some admiration , but if it is their true words , they are plain idiots maricones, that were locked in an convent with other males.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Randwolf,

I think you screwed the pooch here jan, OriginalBiggles wasn't referring to the OP but rather andy's rant: Surely you're not saying andy was referring to "women's bodies" and not the women themselves? (Whatever that means)

You're right, my post was intended as a response to the OP. My bad.

Further, are you asserting that it is acceptable to refer to women's bodies asReally?

Of course not, that would be offensive. But I think it is perfectly acceptable to view the form of ''woman'' objectively, as a form, not one belonging to any person.

Why don't you try saying that to a woman's face and see how it goes over? (Anywhere besides some fundie church) Let me know how it works out for you...

So you're saying, such a conversation, in the right intellectual atmosphere is off-limits?

jan.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Human nature.
It is like Aesop's Fable of the Fox and the Grapes.
The fox cannot have the grapes, so he says they must be sour.

It is not merely a historical attitude.
There is more general and debased hatred of women now,
than was ever expressed by these churchmen.

Just look at any mainstream porn site,
and you'll see how much men hate women today.

 

[Stanley]

As you so astutely observed I have not tracked an original source for the first quote. I have gotten one more further back so far: St. Clement of Alexandria from The Tutor, as quoted in “The Natural Inferiority” of Women compiled by Tama Starr (New York: Poseidon Press, 1991) p. 45 I will keep looking. Same goes for the third and fourth quote. Let me know what you find on your end.

I am not going to look much. I googled St. Clement with some key words from your post and avoided your source based on mainly the date alone - obviously, by now, you would be aware of that.
I read some of St. Clements work and came upon interesting documents that he wrote. What i saw was the opposite of misogynistic.

Feel free to pursue this and if you come up with anything let me know. I partially got through one document, recently closed the tab. Ctrl-F to search docs.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I read some of St. Clements work and came upon interesting documents that he wrote. What i saw was the opposite of misogynistic.

Could you give some examples of things he said about women?

 

[arauca]

Human nature.
It is like Aesop's Fable of the Fox and the Grapes.
The fox cannot have the grapes, so he says they must be sour.

It is not merely a historical attitude.
There is more general and debased hatred of women now,
than was ever expressed by these churchmen.

Just look at any mainstream porn site,
and you'll see how much men hate women today.

I am not sure if it is in all ethnic groups . I my opinion in Hispanic and Slavic society mothers are more revered and so women, then among Anglo ethnics,

 

[OriginalBiggles]

Captain Kremmen writes; "Just look at any mainstream porn site, and you'll see how much men hate women today."

If you had written the above in the 19th century I may have allowed your blinkered remarks to pass without comment. You obviously see sex in all its manifestations as disgusting and dirty. If you viewed sex as a joy, a celebration and an act of consummate love you could not possibly utter such a senseless observation. People love sex and for all we know it may be that the entire biosphere of Earth loves it.

The difference in the male and female sex organs and the common positions usually adopted by a couple for ease of accomplishing maximum enjoyment and successful impregnation, do indeed put the male in a physically dominant role. That's the nature of the beast. Some mainstream porn sites like Party Hardcore and Dancing Bear deliberately place women in the dominant role insofaras choice of participation is concerned. There is a number of lesser known sites using different formats that place the female in an equal or dominant role.

There is no doubt that some sites demean, insult and victimise women. There are men who like to watch this obviously but they are a minority IMHO. These wretches have an innate insecurity born more of a fear of women than of hatred.

The vast majority of porn is not formulated to express male hatred of women but to stimulate the sexual aspects of our nature. Only if you view sex as dirty, execrable and demeaning of women would you say that the porn industry is an expression of male hatred. In fact, if you know just a little of the industry you would know that in a great many cases and situations women have the whip hand [pun intended].

 

[Captain Kremmen]

You obviously see sex in all its manifestations as disgusting and dirty. If you viewed sex as a joy, a celebration and an act of consummate love you could not possibly utter such a senseless observation.

Firstly, these are adhoms.
Any more and I'll put you on ignore.
Secondly, how is pornography an act of consummate love?
They are performing sexual acts for money, with people they have possibly never seen before.

 

[OriginalBiggles]

Firstly, these are adhoms.
Any more and I'll put you on ignore.
Secondly, how is pornography an act of consummate love?
They are performing sexual acts for money, with people they have possibly never seen before.

People perform many acts for money and sometimes with people that may be complete strangers.
Why is a sexual act for money any more heinous than driving a taxi? It is only if you [in general] think that sex is dirty and disgusting, or you [in general] have religious hang-ups about sex.

There is no way my words could be interpreted as claiming that pornography is an act of consummate love. That you choose to misinterpret my meaning somewhat diminishes the legitimacy of you ad hominem charge.

My point was that your claim is itself demeaning to women and that pornography does not have as its raisaon d'etre men expressing hatred for women. Just as I found great satisfaction and fulfilment in my work as a taxi owner/driver, there are many, many sex workers in the porn industry who really enjoy their work.

I had no primary intention to cause your ire to rise. And I have no hang-ups about apologising if you were transported to high dudgeon. But sometimes ad hominem devices have legitimate application. In this case your views are anachronistic and reveal much about your own opinion of sex as a human activity.

 

[Hapsburg]

Secondly, how is pornography an act of consummate love?
They are performing sexual acts for money, with people they have possibly never seen before.

In which case, you are making a clear distinction between emotional and physical love.
I would contend otherwise. I would contend that each has a little of the other wrapped up in it. Sex is love, even if you're not in love.

 

[Stanley]

How are the sources coming along?

None have been posted.

 

[Arioch]

I can see how some porn might be degrading to the woman/women in question(i.e. those participating in the porno), especially if they're being forced into it against their will, but I don't see how one can legitimately argue that all or even most porn is degrading to women as a whole. I know too many women who not only love watching porn but who also love acting in porn to accept such an argument.

 

[Stanley]

I am amazed that not one of those quotes has yet been verified.

At first i posted on a whim and said to myself "let me post blind (no research), because something just does not seem right since the OP is copy pasted on so many web sites yet no one has the intellectual capacity to even question them? Just accept what they read?"

Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine that they were ALL lies, all lies (no credible sources).

What can we make of this?
What does this say about us?

Luckily we have the internet, I can only imagine how manipulated we would otherwise be.

 

[Bells]

I can see how some porn might be degrading to the woman/women in question(i.e. those participating in the porno), especially if they're being forced into it against their will, but I don't see how one can legitimately argue that all or even most porn is degrading to women as a whole. I know too many women who not only love watching porn but who also love acting in porn to accept such an argument.

Yes, because objectifying women as sex objects isn't degrading at all, is it?

 

[Arioch]

@Bells --

So you're saying that these women, who are being paid loads of money and have complete control(in the US porn industry anyways) over what they do on film are being "degraded"? How the fuck do you figure? These women don't feel degraded, so who the fuck are you to tell them that they are? They're doing what they want and they're getting paid buckets of money to do it, sounds like the American dream to me.

So come on now, show me what passes for evidence in your mind that porn is degrading to all women. Should I see if I can get some of the female porn stars I know to drop by and tell you what they think of your position regarding their careers?

 

[Stanley]

@Bells --

So you're saying that these women, who are being paid loads of money and have complete control(in the US porn industry anyways) over what they do on film are being "degraded"? How the fuck do you figure? These women don't feel degraded, so who the fuck are you to tell them that they are? They're doing what they want and they're getting paid buckets of money to do it, sounds like the American dream to me.

So come on now, show me what passes for evidence in your mind that porn is degrading to all women.

Well i think we can answer this with one simple question: Would you want your mother or sister in porn?

I dont think there is any question where you would get a definitive NO from like what 99% of the population. Right there tells you something.

It is not victimless either. Suppose you had an addiction to drugs and some low life wiggles a few bills in front of your face to mount you and film it? Sure at the time it comes in handy but they always regret it later on. Not to mention many are mentally challenged, very low IQ, abused previously, in wrong frame of mind etc.

Should I see if I can get some of the female porn stars I know to drop by and tell you what they think of your position regarding their careers?

That is up to the moderators.

 

[Arioch]

@Stanley

Would you want your mother or sister in porn?

I see no reason why not. It's no different from delivering mail in my mind, a job is a job.

I dont think there is any question where you would get a definitive NO from like what 99% of the population. Right there tells you something.

That a large percentage of the planet still suffers from silly negative stigmas about sex and those who have it? Because that's about the only relevant piece of information that I can glean from that.

It is not victimless either.

I never said it was, in fact I deliberately brought up coercion as a way it could be degrading. However given that porn can be made without victimizing anyone I would argue that those who are being victimized are being victimized by other people, not by the act of having sex on camera. Keep in mind that any job can be considered "degrading"(it's a subjective term), and that adding coercion into the picture doesn't implicate porn itself of being degrading.

By and large, the professional porn industry does an impecable job of insuring that it's female actors are safe, well paid(far better on average than male porn stars), and in control of their shoots.

Suppose you had an addiction to drugs and some low life wiggles a few bills in front of your face to mount you and film it? Sure at the time it comes in handy but they always regret it later on.

Oh, they always do, huh? I'm going to call bullshit on that one. Sure, some of them wind up regretting their actions, sometimes. However the situation you posit is not the most common one, by far. It's disingenuous, at best, to posit an uncommon scenario and then extrapolate common rules from it, which is what I see here. Does it happen? Yes, on occasion. Does it happen frequently enough that it should be a condemnation of the industry as a whole? Hell no.

Not to mention many are mentally challenged, very low IQ, abused previously, in wrong frame of mind etc.

I'm going to need citations for this. It's a very common assumption, but I've yet to ever see numbers which back it up.

 

[Stanley]

@Stanley

I see no reason why not. It's no different from delivering mail in my mind, a job is a job.

I think you are being dishonest here since you want to make your case and it is anonymous. You could be in the overwhelming minority though.

That a large percentage of the planet still suffers from silly negative stigmas about sex and those who have it? Because that's about the only relevant piece of information that I can glean from that.

I dont think that is an accurate statement at all.

I never said it was, in fact I deliberately brought up coercion as a way it could be degrading. However given that porn can be made without victimizing anyone I would argue that those who are being victimized are being victimized by other people, not by the act of having sex on camera. Keep in mind that any job can be considered "degrading"(it's a subjective term), and that adding coercion into the picture doesn't implicate porn itself of being degrading.

By and large, the professional porn industry does an impecable job of insuring that it's female actors are safe, well paid(far better on average than male porn stars), and in control of their shoots.

I think it is a larger problem than just having sex. Personally i am very open minded and consenting adults can do what they want as long as they are in the right frame of mind. The larger issue, as Bells alluded to, is the way women are treated in society and the porn industry does not help at all and in fact does exactly the opposite.

A human being is not our own personal play toy, weather in real life or on the screen and just because we give them dirty pieces of paper does not change that.

Oh, they always do, huh? I'm going to call bullshit on that one. Sure, some of them wind up regretting their actions, sometimes. However the situation you posit is not the most common one, by far. It's disingenuous, at best, to posit an uncommon scenario and then extrapolate common rules from it, which is what I see here. Does it happen? Yes, on occasion. Does it happen frequently enough that it should be a condemnation of the industry as a whole? Hell no.

I'm going to need citations for this. It's a very common assumption, but I've yet to ever see numbers which back it up.

Pornographers love damaged people for the simple reason that they make bad decisions, can be manipulated, have no one to turn to etc., etc., Drugs cloud a person's judgement and lower their inhibitions, the more mistake you make (like porn) the more you try and mask the reality, it's just a downhill ride. Sure there are exceptions to every rule but for every one there are thousand that get a raw deal.

I doubt you are aware of Aileen Wuornos, she killed a few men who were using her services as a prostitute and have to say she made some good points as to why she did it. Thats reality, what you are saying is mainly fantasy. Of course she was wrong for what she did as it seems as though she was not in immediate danger and she apologised.

 

[Arioch]

@Stanley --

I dont think that is an accurate statement at all.

Really? Because we have a large number of people, even here in the US, who claim that the only purpose sex can serve is reproduction. Such misconceptions about sex, BDSM, and the sex industry are even more common in undeveloped countries, such as those under the boot of theocracies. I would say that negative stigmas about sex are more common than the opposite.

The larger issue, as Bells alluded to, is the way women are treated in society and the porn industry does not help at all and in fact does exactly the opposite.

An argument which is not in evidence as neither you nor Bells have supported your assertions. As of right now that's all I see them as, assertions.

Sure there are exceptions to every rule but for every one there are thousand that get a raw deal.

That's a nice assumption you have there. Is there any chance that you have evidence to back it up?

Anyway, this went off topic

You're right in that regard, this deserves it's own thread.