The Love of God vs. the "love" of this world
- Thread starter TruthSeeker
- Start date
1) God and Satan are not true opposites!! To be true opposites, they must be equal and mutually exclusive. However, God and Satan are not equal. Satan is a fallen angel. A creature created by God, but then turned upon his creator (like man only far more powerful).
2) God can do anything. He CAN experience fear. But why would he? Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you have, are, or will do it. I can prove the first two (have, are), after all, you're reading this, so you haven't killed yourself even though you could have. The third, I can't prove because I'm not omniscient or prescient.
Yes, but being able to do something and doing it are entirely different. God CAN experience fear, but he has nothing to fear, so he doesn't experience fear.
Ditto.
Cris, Prove it didn't happen.
If we are so sadly mistaken, Prove it!
The unbelievable is only unbelievable to the unbeliever.
You don't believe miracles, you need proof?
Prove to me that God doesn't exist. To me, a believer in God, the very belief that God couldn't exist is unbelievable.
*If you can use a simple unfounded and pathetic argument such as "prove it", then so can I, so lets see your PROOF!!*
Kython,
OTOH believers such as yourself have made fantastic claims about super beings and other unnatural realms and have not provided a single shred of evidence or proof for your claims.
Until you can show a proof you lack any credibility.
Why? I'm not making a claim that it didn’t happen.
Why? I haven't claimed you are mistaken.
And the unbeliever disbelieves because it is not believable. You need to show it is believable if you want rational people to believe. But if it is unbelievable why do you believe it, isn't that irrational?
There is no reason to believe something without proof.
Why? I'm not making a claim that he doesn't exit.
I think your position is called 'close mindedness', the inability to consider all alternatives. Unbelief is not the same as believing something is false. Most unbelievers leave open the possibility of gods but request those that make claims for such things justify their claims.
Prove what? I have made no claims that require me to state a proof.
OTOH believers such as yourself have made fantastic claims about super beings and other unnatural realms and have not provided a single shred of evidence or proof for your claims.
Until you can show a proof you lack any credibility.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Saddly, even Christians prefer to use money in such situations. I'm more radical then that...
That's because they realized you can't feed people with love. You need food to do that.
No... I don't go because I'm going to high-school now...
What's the use of high-school? If you truely love you should be able to go to Africa right now and start feeding people with your love. If you don't need science and all that stuff why stay in high school?
Even so, it would be pretty meaningless. Life is meaningful when we can affect the lifes of others. If we don't, it would be like if we had never existed.
It's pretty difficult to help others when you don't even have a job to support yourself. We need things to live... mainly food, shelter, and clothing. These don't magically appear out of love. You need to work on them.
What do you want? Do you want a document from a doctor saying that they don't know how someone was cured? Maybe I can get that... But will you believe if I show you?
The chances of a 'miracle' recovery have been shown to be the same between religion and placebo.
Everyone dies someday. Again, our medical science can only keep us alive. It doesn't do anything better then that.
Life is worth living... don't try and marginalize it.
Well, I can certainly say that God lives within me! And that with Him nothing is impossible...!
Then you are not out feeding the starving children because...?
(You must be joking)
Certainly not...
1) You are probably alive today because of science.
2) There were always crazy people. You have no reason to think they are because of greed.
Not really... Of course, I cannot test God. But if I were poor, since I have the faith, I wouldn't starve.
Let's test that.... don't eat anymore. I'm pretty sure your 'faith' will only last so long.
How were you born?
Have your parents had 'the talk' yet? Love is optional in the event.
Saddly, even Christians prefer to use money in such situations. I'm more radical then that...
That's because they realized you can't feed people with love. You need food to do that.
No... I don't go because I'm going to high-school now...
What's the use of high-school? If you truely love you should be able to go to Africa right now and start feeding people with your love. If you don't need science and all that stuff why stay in high school?
Even so, it would be pretty meaningless. Life is meaningful when we can affect the lifes of others. If we don't, it would be like if we had never existed.
It's pretty difficult to help others when you don't even have a job to support yourself. We need things to live... mainly food, shelter, and clothing. These don't magically appear out of love. You need to work on them.
What do you want? Do you want a document from a doctor saying that they don't know how someone was cured? Maybe I can get that... But will you believe if I show you?
The chances of a 'miracle' recovery have been shown to be the same between religion and placebo.
Everyone dies someday. Again, our medical science can only keep us alive. It doesn't do anything better then that.
Life is worth living... don't try and marginalize it.
Well, I can certainly say that God lives within me! And that with Him nothing is impossible...!
Then you are not out feeding the starving children because...?
(You must be joking)
Certainly not...
1) You are probably alive today because of science.
2) There were always crazy people. You have no reason to think they are because of greed.
Not really... Of course, I cannot test God. But if I were poor, since I have the faith, I wouldn't starve.
Let's test that.... don't eat anymore. I'm pretty sure your 'faith' will only last so long.
How were you born?
Have your parents had 'the talk' yet? Love is optional in the event.
No, you didn't flat out state it, but you clearly implied it.
Do your daughters love you? Prove it. Can you read their minds or do you have only words and acts to base your 'proof' upon? Not everything can be reasoned by our simple (relative) minds.
Ditto. Implicit or not, your statement aren't objective, and they DO make claims. Prove them. My problem is that you pound your chest and us to prove our claims, and yet you do follow your own doctrine. You make statements that have no proof. Sure you may refer to other authors or theologians, but other people's opinions aren't proof.
Kython,
I'm certain I have made some lazy statements in these forums, but generally I try to only make statements that have some evidential support, although I do not always quote the references. And I have sometimes made some deliberately provocative and unsupported statements to generate debate.
I'm not sure that you will be able to find anything where I have made unsupported claims for issues of real substance?
Do you have any examples?
Examples?
I'm certain I have made some lazy statements in these forums, but generally I try to only make statements that have some evidential support, although I do not always quote the references. And I have sometimes made some deliberately provocative and unsupported statements to generate debate.
I'm not sure that you will be able to find anything where I have made unsupported claims for issues of real substance?
quote:
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"4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
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Then please explain the prevelance of road rage and adultery in 'civilized society'.
In other words, prove the characteristics of love as quoted above are the natural result of civilized intelligent maturity.
ANd how do you KNOW this?
How can you prove afterlife is a fantasy? Until Newton, the idea that we are held to the earth by its mass would have been fantasy.
On a different topic:
But to the believer, what the unbeliever sees as unbelievable, is believable, and therefore rational to the believer, irregardless of how the unbeliever view it (whatever it is). My point is, that from your perspective it is irrational, but from mine it is rational. Don't assume people are irrational just because of your perspective (in reference to a perspective based upon foundational beliefs*)
*foundational beliefs does not refer to religion versus science, but the personal belief in tangible fact versus intangible fact (faith). The difference between believing man can understand everything and believing man is not perfect and may not be able to understand somethings (in a similar way as a Commodore© not being able to run Windows XP).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then please explain the prevelance of road rage and adultery in 'civilized society'.
In other words, prove the characteristics of love as quoted above are the natural result of civilized intelligent maturity.
ANd how do you KNOW this?
How can you prove afterlife is a fantasy? Until Newton, the idea that we are held to the earth by its mass would have been fantasy.
On a different topic:
But to the believer, what the unbeliever sees as unbelievable, is believable, and therefore rational to the believer, irregardless of how the unbeliever view it (whatever it is). My point is, that from your perspective it is irrational, but from mine it is rational. Don't assume people are irrational just because of your perspective (in reference to a perspective based upon foundational beliefs*)
*foundational beliefs does not refer to religion versus science, but the personal belief in tangible fact versus intangible fact (faith). The difference between believing man can understand everything and believing man is not perfect and may not be able to understand somethings (in a similar way as a Commodore© not being able to run Windows XP).
Persol,
Besides, I need someone to help me, and that's why I'm here at this moment in time...
Matthew 6:25-34
"25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
26 "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
27 "And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?
28 "And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,
29 yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these.
30 "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
31 "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34 "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. "
No. I feed people with food. But I get the food with faith working through Love.
But my father believes I need to stay, and he is paying for it...
Besides, I need someone to help me, and that's why I'm here at this moment in time...
Matthew 6:25-34
"25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
26 "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
27 "And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?
28 "And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,
29 yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these.
30 "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
31 "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34 "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. "
Not what the documents say...
What the heck are you talking about??
Because I still need someone to help me... Sometimes God brings two people to work together. There is an importance in that because fellowship is needed. Also, praying with one another. And encouraging one another. And so on...
Not really...
No there weren't. And another thing that clearly show the sickness of this system is the rate of suicide...
First of all I had JUST said that I canno test God. Second, that is pretty stupid, since only when I need I use faith.
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
No. I feed people with food. But I get the food with faith working through Love.
Most people need to till the ground, plant seeds, water them, and pick the crops. You must have it easy.
But my father believes I need to stay, and he is paying for it... Besides, I need someone to help me, and that's why I'm here at this moment in time...
But you have God...
Matthew 6:25-34
"25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
Life is more then food, but that doesn't mean you don't need food.
26 "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
Look at the deer, who eat entire forests and then starve to death.
27 "And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?
Being worried is completely different then supporting yourself.
28 "And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,
Do you have an issue of playboy. Clothing is optional and all..
30 "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
Clothes do not magically appear either. Someone needs to work on them.
31 "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
No... act like some of the early settlers and don't worry about it. God will take are of you when you die.
32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34 "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. "
Once again... not planning is asking for trouble. There is a difference between planning and worrying.
Not what the documents say...
And these are which documents?
Life is worth living... don't try and marginalize it.
What the heck are you talking about??
You stated "our medical science can only keep us alive. It doesn't do anything better then that." Personally keeping us alive is somewhat important.
Because I still need someone to help me... Sometimes God brings two people to work together. There is an importance in that because fellowship is needed. Also, praying with one another. And encouraging one another. And so on...
Theres lots of starving people in Africa you can pray with.
1) You are probably alive today because of science.
Not really...
So none of you ancestors ever took antibiotics or had a life saving operation. Hell, even childbirth is MUCH less likely to result in death.
You don't eat food? Even farming is now a science.
2) There were always crazy people. You have no reason to think they are because of greed.
No there weren't.
And you base this on what?
And another thing that clearly show the sickness of this system is the rate of suicide...
Let me guess... there was no suicide either.
First of all I had JUST said that I canno test God. Second, that is pretty stupid, since only when I need I use faith.
Fine... you're in jail and they don't feed you for years. You need your faith. You honestly think you won't starve to death?
No. I feed people with food. But I get the food with faith working through Love.
Most people need to till the ground, plant seeds, water them, and pick the crops. You must have it easy.
But my father believes I need to stay, and he is paying for it... Besides, I need someone to help me, and that's why I'm here at this moment in time...
But you have God...
Matthew 6:25-34
"25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
Life is more then food, but that doesn't mean you don't need food.
26 "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
Look at the deer, who eat entire forests and then starve to death.
27 "And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?
Being worried is completely different then supporting yourself.
28 "And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,
Do you have an issue of playboy. Clothing is optional and all..
30 "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
Clothes do not magically appear either. Someone needs to work on them.
31 "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
No... act like some of the early settlers and don't worry about it. God will take are of you when you die.
32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34 "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own. "
Once again... not planning is asking for trouble. There is a difference between planning and worrying.
Not what the documents say...
And these are which documents?
Life is worth living... don't try and marginalize it.
What the heck are you talking about??
You stated "our medical science can only keep us alive. It doesn't do anything better then that." Personally keeping us alive is somewhat important.
Because I still need someone to help me... Sometimes God brings two people to work together. There is an importance in that because fellowship is needed. Also, praying with one another. And encouraging one another. And so on...
Theres lots of starving people in Africa you can pray with.
1) You are probably alive today because of science.
Not really...
So none of you ancestors ever took antibiotics or had a life saving operation. Hell, even childbirth is MUCH less likely to result in death.
You don't eat food? Even farming is now a science.
2) There were always crazy people. You have no reason to think they are because of greed.
No there weren't.
And you base this on what?
And another thing that clearly show the sickness of this system is the rate of suicide...
Let me guess... there was no suicide either.
First of all I had JUST said that I canno test God. Second, that is pretty stupid, since only when I need I use faith.
Fine... you're in jail and they don't feed you for years. You need your faith. You honestly think you won't starve to death?
Persol,
I can do it, if I need to.
Yes I do. But guess what? Fellowship is another important thing among Christians.
I don't think so. They are usually killed by hunters that just want to "have fun"...
But "supporting yourself" causes worries.
Whichever! There are lots of doctors that have seen miracles!
I said it didn't solve the problem, it just kept it somewhat in control. And yet, ask how's life to someone with cancer. How science can help. And healthcare cost tons of money to people. And there are old people that uses all their money to pay for pills and such. And it goes on and on...
I need someone that have some other gifts of the spirit with me. You don't understand that since you know nothing about the "body of Christ". Maybe if you would read Ephesians 4...
No. The doctors told my grandma they could do nothing. She prayed and was instantly healed. And the possibility of childbirth death was never high. The only problem that can happen is if the position of the baby is wrong, which is very unlikely to happen. Then, you need medical intervention.
Yeah sure... with all those chemicals and genetical changed vegetebals that we don't even know the health effects they will have on people...
I could write a whole thread on it. But take for example the level of stress of modern society compared to the level of stress long time ago. You will see that as people get more stressed, angry and frustrated it is easier for them to become psychopats, maniachs and schizofrhenics (however you spell those things...:bugeye: ).
It increased drastically with the level of stress.
Well... I cannot be sure since Jesus took 5 bread and broke it to 5000 people. Maybe I need the bread first in order to brake it...
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
I can do it, if I need to.
and you would need too..
I don't think so. They are usually killed by hunters that just want to "have fun"...
Maybe you don't believe this, but it is part of the deer's group cycle that they multiply real fast, eat too, much, and most of them starve.
But "supporting yourself" causes worries.
It doesn't need to if you have a plan. I have a job and pay all my bills. I have no reason to worry about 'supporting myself'.
Whichever! There are lots of doctors that have seen miracles!
[n]
I said it didn't solve the problem, it just kept it somewhat in control.
It helps with the pain... that's it. Placebos have almost the same effect.
And yet, ask how's life to someone with cancer. How science can help.
Well they can cure a number of cancers which used to be terminal. I'm sure these people are thankful for science. Also sanitation developments, such as sewers and showers, keep you from catching some very nasty diseases.
And healthcare cost tons of money to people.
So it is suddenly better to have no healthcare and die then have expensive healthcare? You have no need for money when you are dead, so you might as well spend it now.
And there are old people that uses all their money to pay for pills and such.
Pills which keep them alive.
And it goes on and on...
Yes, there are many more benefits to science. It is not flawless, but neither is religion.
I need someone that have some other gifts of the spirit with me. You don't understand that since you know nothing about the "body of Christ". Maybe if you would read Ephesians 4...
I have... what's your point. Just because I read something doesn't make me believe it.
No. The doctors told my grandma they could do nothing. She prayed and was instantly healed.
People who don't pray also have the same outcome. That doesn't mean it was ''God's will''.
And the possibility of childbirth death was never high. The only problem that can happen is if the position of the baby is wrong, which is very unlikely to happen. Then, you need medical intervention.
There are also other problems like malformed uterus.
Yeah sure... with all those chemicals and genetical changed vegetebals that we don't even know the health effects they will have on people...
I'm thinking that you live in the US... where genetically modified plants are not for human consumption (except when 'errors' are made in distribution)
I could write a whole thread on it. But take for example the level of stress of modern society compared to the level of stress long time ago.
So today most people sit in an office and work on a computer. Oh... the horror... how stressful... will this torture never end...
As opposed to growing your own food working in the fields a large portion of the day, and realizing that you will starve during the winter if you didn't grow enough.
You will see that as people get more stressed, angry and frustrated it is easier for them to become psychopats, maniachs and schizofrhenics
Believe it or not, not everybody gets stressed. Some people are just more prone to it, and they would if they were in an office or plowing a field.
(however you spell those things...:bugeye: ).
hehe
It increased drastically with the level of stress.
I tend to look at it as increasing drastically with the availability of knives/guns/rope.
Well... I cannot be sure since Jesus took 5 bread and broke it to 5000 people. Maybe I need the bread first in order to brake it...
These is one of those cases where priests would even argue that it's a metaphor.
I can do it, if I need to.
and you would need too..
I don't think so. They are usually killed by hunters that just want to "have fun"...
Maybe you don't believe this, but it is part of the deer's group cycle that they multiply real fast, eat too, much, and most of them starve.
But "supporting yourself" causes worries.
It doesn't need to if you have a plan. I have a job and pay all my bills. I have no reason to worry about 'supporting myself'.
Whichever! There are lots of doctors that have seen miracles!
[n]
I said it didn't solve the problem, it just kept it somewhat in control.
It helps with the pain... that's it. Placebos have almost the same effect.
And yet, ask how's life to someone with cancer. How science can help.
Well they can cure a number of cancers which used to be terminal. I'm sure these people are thankful for science. Also sanitation developments, such as sewers and showers, keep you from catching some very nasty diseases.
And healthcare cost tons of money to people.
So it is suddenly better to have no healthcare and die then have expensive healthcare? You have no need for money when you are dead, so you might as well spend it now.
And there are old people that uses all their money to pay for pills and such.
Pills which keep them alive.
And it goes on and on...
Yes, there are many more benefits to science. It is not flawless, but neither is religion.
I need someone that have some other gifts of the spirit with me. You don't understand that since you know nothing about the "body of Christ". Maybe if you would read Ephesians 4...
I have... what's your point. Just because I read something doesn't make me believe it.
No. The doctors told my grandma they could do nothing. She prayed and was instantly healed.
People who don't pray also have the same outcome. That doesn't mean it was ''God's will''.
And the possibility of childbirth death was never high. The only problem that can happen is if the position of the baby is wrong, which is very unlikely to happen. Then, you need medical intervention.
There are also other problems like malformed uterus.
Yeah sure... with all those chemicals and genetical changed vegetebals that we don't even know the health effects they will have on people...
I'm thinking that you live in the US... where genetically modified plants are not for human consumption (except when 'errors' are made in distribution)
I could write a whole thread on it. But take for example the level of stress of modern society compared to the level of stress long time ago.
So today most people sit in an office and work on a computer. Oh... the horror... how stressful... will this torture never end...
As opposed to growing your own food working in the fields a large portion of the day, and realizing that you will starve during the winter if you didn't grow enough.
You will see that as people get more stressed, angry and frustrated it is easier for them to become psychopats, maniachs and schizofrhenics
Believe it or not, not everybody gets stressed. Some people are just more prone to it, and they would if they were in an office or plowing a field.
(however you spell those things...:bugeye: ).
hehe
It increased drastically with the level of stress.
I tend to look at it as increasing drastically with the availability of knives/guns/rope.
Well... I cannot be sure since Jesus took 5 bread and broke it to 5000 people. Maybe I need the bread first in order to brake it...
These is one of those cases where priests would even argue that it's a metaphor.
I can't believe you highly intelligent people (I would guess most everyone but T) have the tenacity and free time to squander pointlessly addressing T's posts. He is not a rational person, nor do I think that he has the means or willingness to be so. Why do you bother? You guyz are crazy!
kython,
Ask anyone who is civilized, intelligent and mature.
http://www.naplesnews.com/03/01/florida/d874999a.htm
http://got.net/~seasons/suicide.html
What prevalence? Note I said intelligent maturity.
Those aren't the characteristics of love they are the characteristics of civilized intelligent maturity. E.g. patience, kindness, compassion, humility, sympathy, tolerant, etc.
Ask anyone who is civilized, intelligent and mature.
If the quality of life becomes intolerable then love is simply inadequate to want to stay alive. This is a common problem with loving elderly couples with failing health. Try these links, there are quite a few more.
http://www.naplesnews.com/03/01/florida/d874999a.htm
http://got.net/~seasons/suicide.html
That is true it would have been seen as a fantasy, and the way the fantasy was dispelled was what? The answer was through physical evidence and proof. The only way we can distinguish the difference between a fantasy and reality is through the use of evidence. Until you can provide proof of a god then the idea of a god is indistinguishable from a fantasy, and there is no reason to call it anything other than a fantasy.
Based on the definitions of logic and reason, the absence of facts in any attempt to claim logical reason always results in an irrational conclusion. This isn't my perspective; it is the accepted rules of logic. Without evidence your claims for a god are irrational.
I believe this is gibberish. The clause 'intangible fact' is an oxymoron, an impossible condition. A fact cannot be intangible, since this would defy the definition of fact. And faith means belief without facts, and has no value with respect to the determination of truth.
Jenyar,
The biggest problem I have with religionists is that they confuse what they WANT to be true with what can be shown to be true and then they prematurely claim that it must be true. A disciplined mind, while tempted by desire, will withhold belief until the object has been shown to be true.
Why would you want to claim something as true unless you can show it to be true?
The biggest problem I have with religionists is that they confuse what they WANT to be true with what can be shown to be true and then they prematurely claim that it must be true. A disciplined mind, while tempted by desire, will withhold belief until the object has been shown to be true.
Persol,
How about our laws? Where is the earliest account for a law that says: "do not kill"? Do you know where? I'm pretty sure you know. Again, our laws also came from God.
Have you EVER heard anything about stress increasing?
I will never need to.
And what is your point.
You are not perfect. Your plans may not work. Or the circumstances might change against our favor. Either way there is a high probability that you will worry, although you have a plan.
And miracles make health problem totally disappear.
Do you remember the bubonic plague? Do you know how they discovered the problem? The Jews weren't dying. Why they weren't dying? Because God told them to always bath and keep their higine. Guess what? God is much wiser then us. ANd most that we know comes from Him.
How about our laws? Where is the earliest account for a law that says: "do not kill"? Do you know where? I'm pretty sure you know. Again, our laws also came from God.
Sure! IF people had enough money to pay...!
Pills, those, that not only barely keep them alive, but also that many times makes it worse. And still, IF they CAN pay for them.
Science really doesn't benefit if we give more value to money then other people's life.
My point is that I need someone to come with me.
No they don't! The doctors said that my grandma would soon die and as soon as she prayed after that, the porblem totally disappeared. It doesn't happen that way.
I have never heard of it, so it is certainly rare. Still, how science would help?
I don't think so. They do have genetic modified plants everywhere nowdays. And there are many people that protest against that.
Apparently, you don't live in planet earth...:bugeye:
Have you EVER heard anything about stress increasing?
You need to read about stress in order to understand what I'm saying. The stress comes mostly from repetitive tasks.
You didn't need to comment on that...
That too... And those were given by science. How can we make weapons of mass destruction? With religion? I don't think so...:bugeye:
No it is not a metaphor. And, yes, they could even say that it is, if they are not faithful. Saddly, even Christians nowdays seem to be slaves of money. There is some need for revolution...
If reason is your god, you will be blind to see the God of reason.
I just want to bring things into perspective. It's an exaggeration of principles to imply that 'religionists' want to make reason invalid. You can't be homo sapiens and not adhere to principles of reason, unless you are homo lunatic of course. But reason is not God. Reason does not create or sustain, neither does logic and neither does science.
Neither does science! Science povides the pool of information we need to exploit nature and knowledge. Even genetic engineering uses already existing resources, combine and manipulate them into more useful forms. Yes, humans create "new" things, materials, methods, but it uses energy that already exists.
Religion is also not something new. I believe Tiassa is the authority on this. But the "from" and the "whereto" is what is important in religion. That is why things like love - an abstract principle - is so important. God is concerned over what goes on in the heart. What we do with our minds and bodies is almost exclusively our business - so-called "free will" - although as I have explained before, it's a nice self-serving illusion. If you live in a bubble of course you don't have to worry about "extraneous" things like "God". Lots of Christians live in a "God"-bubble, and lots of atheist/agnostics live in an ego-bubble. Actually, all of us live in a nice cozy world consisting of things we can understand, from where we make our enlightened visits into the unknown.
But all the while we live in certain ways. Whatever we believe in, we affect our own lives and that of other people in certain ways. We all have a moral compass that we follow. How can you deny that it is calibrated to an intanglible magnetic pole? When you're travelling somewhere, what is more important - the vehicle you choose to travel in, the map you use, or the mindset in which you approach it? Ask any explorer who ever climbed Everest or went to the North pole. Ask anybody who ever suffered, what gave them hope?
I just want to bring things into perspective. It's an exaggeration of principles to imply that 'religionists' want to make reason invalid. You can't be homo sapiens and not adhere to principles of reason, unless you are homo lunatic of course. But reason is not God. Reason does not create or sustain, neither does logic and neither does science.
Neither does science! Science povides the pool of information we need to exploit nature and knowledge. Even genetic engineering uses already existing resources, combine and manipulate them into more useful forms. Yes, humans create "new" things, materials, methods, but it uses energy that already exists.
Religion is also not something new. I believe Tiassa is the authority on this. But the "from" and the "whereto" is what is important in religion. That is why things like love - an abstract principle - is so important. God is concerned over what goes on in the heart. What we do with our minds and bodies is almost exclusively our business - so-called "free will" - although as I have explained before, it's a nice self-serving illusion. If you live in a bubble of course you don't have to worry about "extraneous" things like "God". Lots of Christians live in a "God"-bubble, and lots of atheist/agnostics live in an ego-bubble. Actually, all of us live in a nice cozy world consisting of things we can understand, from where we make our enlightened visits into the unknown.
But all the while we live in certain ways. Whatever we believe in, we affect our own lives and that of other people in certain ways. We all have a moral compass that we follow. How can you deny that it is calibrated to an intanglible magnetic pole? When you're travelling somewhere, what is more important - the vehicle you choose to travel in, the map you use, or the mindset in which you approach it? Ask any explorer who ever climbed Everest or went to the North pole. Ask anybody who ever suffered, what gave them hope?