The legal status of religious rituals

S.A.M.

S.A.M.

uniquely dreadful
Valued Senior Member
Apparently there are wedding rituals which are not legally binding, in that case, what is the status of such a couple? Can they have several weddings with different people and not be subject to bigamy?

In India, we have "court marriages" only if going west, although I have seen court appointed registrars in some churches. It never occurred to me to wonder at the status of marriages which are not court approved, example, in the case of parents who visit and such. Are spouses of such weddings recognised as next of kin?

What other religious rituals are not legally recognised unless accompanied by a civil ceremony?
 
In short, people go through the ritual before or after formally registering the wedding, at least thats the case in the UK.
 
If they don't register the wedding, what is the status? Are they not recognised as a couple? Can they have more than one wedding without a divorce?
 
Thats pretty bizarre. So basically all weddings in the UK are essentially meaningless. Its only the court appointment that has any validity

What happens if someone moves to the UK after 15-20 years of marriage with children? What is the status of their marriage? Do they have to get married again in court?
 
No but I think you do need some form of proof of marriage, otherwise you could bring anyone in and say they are your wife/husband.
 
Pinwheel said:
No but I think you do need some form of proof of marriage, otherwise you could bring anyone in and say they are your wife/husband.
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So a civil ceremony in the place of origin then.

Does the UK recognise cohabitation at all? I know Canada does.
 
The article was pretty dubious. According to the girl she had no wedding certificate, but all Muslim marriages are binding legal contracts which are signed by both parties [and two witnesses from each side] and clearly outline the amount of mehr due to the girl from her husband. Its called a nikaah namah or wedding contract.
 
S.A.M. said:
So a civil ceremony in the place of origin then.

Does the UK recognise cohabitation at all? I know Canada does.
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I think most Western countries legally recognise defacto relationships.

And Christian weddings normally have a part of the ceremony where the couple sign their names in the register and also sign certificates, so that will normally comprise of the civil part of the ceremony (along with witnesses and the like also signing). Of course it is masked in religious clap trap at the time (chime in gospel songs or as couples seem to do now, quartet playing Pachabel).

What happens if someone moves to the UK after 15-20 years of marriage with children? What is the status of their marriage? Do they have to get married again in court?
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It would be recognised.

Automatically. It does not mean that the couple would then have to have a civil wedding in the UK. But normally when you get married, you do have a civil ceremony as well or it is incorporated in the religious ceremony you have and you then enter into the Government registry as having been married. I think you would find that even in countries where multiple marriages are common, that it is only the first wife or the one with the actual registered marriage who has legal rights if the husband does not explicitly grant the rest of his wives similar status. I know it was the same in the country of my birth, were some Muslim men would marry and have the civil component with one wife and if he then wanted to have multiple wives, he'd have the religious ceremonies for those extra wives but his weddings to his extra wives would not be legally recognised or even be legally binding.
 
Probably its different from country to country, in India, we only have to register our marriages, much as we register birth and death. Muslims in India are covered by the Muslim marriage act which is covered by Muslim personal law and I'm pretty sure that more than one wife can be registered. Hindus by Hindu marriage act and Parsis and Christians by their own personal laws. Only interfaith couples have civil ceremonies unless one of the partners converts.
 
S.A.M. said:
Apparently there are wedding rituals which are not legally binding, in that case, what is the status of such a couple? Can they have several weddings with different people and not be subject to bigamy?

In India, we have "court marriages" only if going west, although I have seen court appointed registrars in some churches. It never occurred to me to wonder at the status of marriages which are not court approved, example, in the case of parents who visit and such. Are spouses of such weddings recognised as next of kin?

What other religious rituals are not legally recognised unless accompanied by a civil ceremony?
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that was the case with my weddings, because i got married in mexico, and you have to jump through some hoops to have a ceremony that's legal in the US down there, and it left the opportunity for our family to celebrate at the court ceremony. we'll celebrate our anniversary on the date of the mexican ceremony.

i guess the premise is (or it was with us), that the religious ceremony is supposed to mean something, and the legality of it is a formality. actually, both are a formality and mean something imo. both are ways to confirm and delineate a commitment.

i think in the US, the common law marriage is an interesting concept. there's no ceremony, religious or legal, and no formalized commitment, yet after a certain amount of time living together, the state recognizes the couple as legally married.
 
S.A.M. said:
Probably its different from country to country, in India, we only have to register our marriages, much as we register birth and death. Muslims in India are covered by the Muslim marriage act which is covered by Muslim personal law and I'm pretty sure that more than one wife can be registered. Hindus by Hindu marriage act and Parsis and Christians by their own personal laws. Only interfaith couples have civil ceremonies unless one of the partners converts.
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Yes and in registering that marriage, as you would with a birth or death, you are fulfilling the civil component required by law.

The ceremony can be as religious as you want it, but you still need to register the marriage and have both parties sign it, which is what the civil component is about.

I had a civil wedding and the celebrant who officiated my wedding had us repeat the exact same vows as I had heard in Christian and other religious weddings, only they left out the God references. So in that regard, it is fairly standard in asking the groom if he takes this woman to be his wife and the bride if she takes the groom to be her husband. The wording may be different depending on the culture or religion used in the service, but the intent and meaning of the words are the same at the end of the day.

I also think you should check about Muslim weddings in India and multiple weddings. I am not sure if you one can have multiple wedding certificates to different wives at the same time or register yourself as married to different women at the same time. I think you might find that one may be registered and the others are more religious or ceremonial and any register they do sign is more religious than say, the one where they are registereing it as one would a birth or death (the official Government register).
 
@ Lori:

I don't understand the concept of a civil ceremony myself. Marriage is essentially a relationship and any ritual which satisfies the couple should be valid.

@ Bells:

The Muslim marriage act permits polygamy for Muslim men in India

Muslims are governed by their personal laws under which "Nikah" (i.e. marriage) is a contract and may be permanent or temporary and permits a man 4 wives if he treats all of them equally. To have a valid "Nikah" under the Muslim Law, presence of a Qazi (Priest) is not necessary. Merely a proposal in the presence and hearing of two sane males or one sane male and two sane female adults, all Muslims and acceptance of the said proposals at the same time constitute a valid Nikah under the Muslim Personal Law.
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S.A.M. said:
I don't understand the concept of a civil ceremony myself. Marriage is essentially a relationship and any ritual which satisfies the couple should be valid.
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The civil concept satisfies the legal requirement, much like registering a child's birth and getting a birth certificate.

In a civil ceremony, they have you exchange your vows and then exchange rings if you have them and then you sign the paperwork (same paperwork you'd sign in a religious ceremony) and have your witnesses witness everything and they then pronounce you man and wife and tell the groom to kiss the bride. Unless of course you are me and you get a celebrant who was officiating her first ever wedding, and got overly nervous and dropped all the papers she was holding and shook like a leaf in terror for the rest of it.

But it is still a ceremony nonetheless. It may not have the religious component, but it is a ceremony where the bride and groom exchange their vows or present the vows they have written themselves (for example).
 
S.A.M. said:
@ Bells:

The Muslim marriage act permits polygamy for Muslim men in India
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So it does. And polygamy is only for Muslims, isn't it? I was just having a quick read of the Act itself and it is quite interesting to me that there are separate Marriage Acts to cover different religious groups.

Must be an absolute nightmare to administer and I am sure there is probably the risk of men converting to Islam to just be allowed to have multiple wives.

But the whole concept of multiple marriage laws for separate religious groups is interesting. I'll have to read into it a bit further.
 
Bells said:
So it does. And polygamy is only for Muslims, isn't it? I was just having a quick read of the Act itself and it is quite interesting to me that there are separate Marriage Acts to cover different religious groups.

Must be an absolute nightmare to administer and I am sure there is probably the risk of men converting to Islam to just be allowed to have multiple wives.

But the whole concept of multiple marriage laws for separate religious groups is interesting. I'll have to read into it a bit further.
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Yes we don't need a separate civil ceremony or court appearance, or even a priest, just witnesses. And a Muslim marriage is a contract so its up to the parties involved how temporary or permanent it is. There is the odd guy who converts for multiple marriage, but they are usually secular individuals who want to bypass the law. A propah Hindu or Christian would never abandon religion for sex. There are also women who have taken advantage of this legal loophole to legalise their relationships with married men [eg. Hema Malini, who is ironically an activist for the Hindutva brigade, married to Dharmendra, already married with three children] Both of them are Hindutva activists although Dharmendra alias Dilawar Khan converted to Islam so he could marry his sweetheart

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/2004/16-30Jun04-Print-Edition/163006200433.htm

Administration is not an issue. We have separate family courts to deal with all issues under these laws.
 
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SAM said:
Yes we don't need a separate civil ceremony or court appearance, or even a priest, just witnesses.
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In my State, the law specifies that one legally authorized and competent person - an ordained cleric (the word "minister" refers to this role - the "marry, bury, and baptize" aspect of the job), judge, ship captain, etc - administer the vows and verify adult status, consent, presence of witnesses, etc.

That makes the marriage a legal contract, enforceable by law - only one ceremony need be involved, although registering the event with the local government can prove convenient.
SAM said:
Administration is not an issue. We have separate family courts to deal with all issues under these laws.
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A very complex situation, as soon as significant wealth or power is involved.
 
iceaura said:
In my State, the law specifies that one legally authorized and competent person - an ordained cleric (the word "minister" refers to this role - the "marry, bury, and baptize" aspect of the job), judge, ship captain, etc - administer the vows and verify adult status, consent, presence of witnesses, etc.
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Is it implemented? What happens to non-religious couples?
A very complex situation, as soon as significant wealth or power is involved.
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Not really social pressures are more relevant in Indian society than legal enforcement. Most people don't take the law very seriously, if at all. This is why even if a marriage is not registered it is still legally binding, however, it is unlikely that a marriage will break up even if legal bigamy is involved. And without a plaintiff there is no case. I think they are attempting to make marriage registration compulsory but if Indian society becomes that compliant of law, it will also lead to greater frequency of divorce
 
SAM said:
Is it implemented? What happens to non-religious couples?
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? No idea what you are talking about.
SAM said:
A very complex situation, as soon as significant wealth or power is involved.
”
Not really social pressures are more relevant in Indian society than legal enforcement.
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Might makes right is of course a simplification, and one can understand its value in such cases - but if significant wealth or power is involved, even "social pressure" gets pretty complex.
 
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