The illusion of free will

For sake of arugument... say the above is true... how does that help you'r argument that free will arises from cause an effect... an random events.???
I am not arguing that freewill arises from cause and effect ...and random events.. you are... not me!

Perhaps if you could indicate how you feel causes and effects and random events can generate life...therefore the will to self animate... we would gain some further insight into your position.
 
Originally Posted by Quantum Quack
"animated life does indeed allow us to defy the laws of gravity"

If the above statement is true... does it suport you'r argument about free will... an if so... how.???
 
If the above statement is true... does it suport you'r argument about free will... an if so... how.???
I tend to feel for the purposes of this discussion that this can be answered by posing a series of leading questions:

For a rock to evolve to the point that it can move by itself at will, so that it can position it self above and on top of another rock would require it to evolve the capacity to defy the attraction of gravity. Do you agree or not agree?

Note: I am not asking this because it has only one answer. I do not presume an axiomatic truism. If you know of an answer that is different to the one that "seems" obvious, I am all ears.. seriousy. I don't ever presume a fait accompli, or the presumption of absolute knowledge.
 
Perhaps if you could indicate how you feel causes and effects and random events can generate life...therefore the will to self animate... we would gain some further insight into your position.

I dont know the process of how life arose... is that gonna keep you from disscussin the issue you brought up... that "animated life does indeed allow us to defy the laws of gravity"... an how that suports you'r argument about free will.???
 
But would you agree with this or not:
For a rock to evolve to the point that it can move by itself at will, so that it can position it self above and on top of another rock would require it to evolve the capacity to defy the attraction of gravity. Do you agree or not agree?
the point is :
The challenge is to show how self determination and therefore free will can defy the laws of physics.
I am attempting to logically show that life, self animation, self determination, therefore freewill does in deed defy one law of physics in particular gravity.
If I show that in a way that is conclusive regarding only one law of Physics, I believe the challenge has been met and that the criteria for claiming freewill to be an illusion is invalid accordingly.
[this would not mean that freewill is real, it only means that the criteria for judging so is or may be invalid.]
 
But would you agree with this or not:

the point is :
The challenge is to show how self determination and therefore free will can defy the laws of physics.
I am attempting to logically show that life, self animation, self determination, therefore freewill does in deed defy one law of physics in particular gravity.
If I show that in a way that is conclusive regarding only one law of Physics, I believe the challenge has been met and that the criteria for claiming freewill to be an illusion is invalid accordingly.
[this would not mean that freewill is real, it only means that the criteria for judging so is or may be invalid.]


You posed this as a question of physics, but once you say "Free will" you link the context to religion. The choice you have is to admit or deny that animals, specifically those with brains, and more specifically those who have a little more than primitive brains, do indeed have the faculty we call "will". It falls completely under the jurisdiction of Biology, not Physics. "Free will" is the doctrine of religion that tries to reconcile the real world of nature with the imaginary world of the supernatural.

The ability to work the muscles against gravity is the result of a long chain of evolutionary development. If you consider how ants can lift many times their body weight, or that crickets can jump many times their body length, or that cheetas can run faster than a speeding car, or any of the many spectacular feats animals are capable of doing, you'll notice that gravity is merely one of many conditions of the niche that they contend with and exploit.

The will of an ant to do work, or a cricket to jump a meter or two, or of a cheetah to accelerate to breakneck speed, is all rooted in the brain. It's a complex system of feedback control loops with enormous quantities of inputs, know as afferent pathways. In humans, these pathways are channeled through the brain stem, where the will is centered.

One of the best examples of how the will works is breathing. You can try to impose your will over your brain by holding your breath, but it's simply impossible to commit suicide that way. The brain provides two paths to the intercostal muscles, one which gives you temporary control over the muscles, and another which overrides you when blood gas levels hit the red zone.

The same underlying faculty, to act or not to act, has nothing to with freedom per se, just decision making. Some of those decisions are completely taken from us, such as regulating the pupils to allow enough light to enter so that we may see, but reducing the aperture when the light is so intense it may damage the retinas. The same is true of regulating the body temperature through sweating. For this reason higher animals have a parallel pathway from their brains to the organs which operates independently of all decision making.

All higher animals in which will is observed demonstrate the same basic functions of the human brain. Watch a cat stalking prey. It will seem tortured, perhaps for 5-10 minutes or more, by whether to spring or to creep. It's very obvious: the high state of alert, with the ears arched up and the eyes locked on the target. It hugs the ground and makes no sudden movements until the decision to spring is made. But the cat decides. It's brain collects and analyzes copious sensory input, just as yours does when you decide to get up and get a glass of water. In fact, a typical essay question on a Biology exam is to ask the student to trace the activity taking place in all the systems of the body when such a decision is being made, to include sensory input leading to the sensation of thirst, the visualization of where the water is, the perception of balance, the coordination of muscles, and of course the actual firing of the efferent pathways to the muscles, over an elaborate interface that connects nerves to muscles.

You have to keep this grounded in nature. Will is an inherited trait, nothing more . . . and nothing less. Free will is another thing. It's a cultural artifact rooted in superstition, myth, legend and fable. Are you free to get a glass of water? Sure. How about your dog? Can he get up and go to his water bowl when he's thirsty. Of course he can. It's the same thing. It's just one of the fundamental traits provided by nature in animals. Animals like us, right?
 
The challenge is to show how self determination and therefore free will can defy the laws of physics.
I am attempting to logically show that life, self animation, self determination, therefore freewill does in deed defy one law of physics in particular gravity.

Is the defiance you speek of caused by random events... cause an effect... or somptin else.???
 
when you couch your analogy in a more serious and less sarcastic light maybe I will.[humiliation point #1001234]
ReAlLy????
:bugeye:



He has no need to be supernatural to interact with the universe he created... why do you think that? Do you believe in ghosts?
ghosts ARE supernatural, and I don't believe in ghosts to a point..

no I did not mean to get into this discussion in this thread, I only brought it up because you called someone else to that challenge, and I just tried to throw you a monkey wrench..:p

because most non-believer ALWAY look for supernatural evidence for his existence.
and my argument was that evidence doesn't have to be 'super'natural,
 
ghosts ARE supernatural, and I don't believe in ghosts to a point
now that's an interesting way of saying it... :)

because most non-believer ALWAY look for supernatural evidence for his existence.
and my argument was that evidence doesn't have to be 'super'natural,

looking for evidence that is supernatural ....:)... and they don't believe in the supernatural but they look for evidence of the supernatural ... for some reason this seems incredibly funny.. not sure why... :)

I always held that for God to be real he ..uhmmm has to be real, and ultimately that led to a more pantheistic view on the universe as I accepted that it is hard wired into human nature to worship "something" or "anything" even if it in the service of self. [ greed ] and a Pantheistic view tended to be more holistic and less self focused
 
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You posed this as a question of physics, but once you say "Free will" you link the context to religion.
Now that is a really strange thing, I have never associated freewill to be a religious icon.

The reason is because if I remember correctly, the words "By the grace of God Go I" indicates to believers immediately that the freedom of the "I" is dependent on God's grace therefore an external party to the "I" is in control and not the "I" freewill can be deemed an illusion accordingly because it places a typically externalized God as being the ultimate responsible authority.
strange that... hmmm...

The choice you ...
...like us, right?
The rest of your post whilst being excellent reading of which I feel no immediate need to be critical of, fails to deal with the basic issue I have been attempting to present.
That the criteria that freewill defy the laws of Physics, for free will not to be an illusion can be invalidated by simply referring to the evolved ability for life to stand up against gravitational attraction, thus defying the natural outcomes of that law of Gravity.
 
because most non-believer ALWAY look for supernatural evidence for his existence.
and my argument was that evidence doesn't have to be 'super'natural,
I honestly did not know that this thread was actually a pseudo religious thread... seriously...as I have never considered freewill in religious terms as I explained in the previous post.
 
I honestly did not know that this thread was actually a pseudo religious thread... seriously...as I have never considered freewill in religious terms as I explained in the previous post.
I would only think it a pseudo religious thread if one concludes that freewill is genuine but that it is so due to some non-material realm etc, rather than through the natural laws.
 
now that's an interesting way of saying it... :)
yea cause someone once called me to the stone, saying that ghost are spirits, and I do believe that we have a spiritual side to us as a species that we have to address/acknowledged before we can be complete/whole.
so they pointed out that if I believe in the existence of our spiritual side then I must believe in ghosts. I did not have an answer..


looking for evidence that is supernatural ....:)... and they don't believe in the supernatural but they look for evidence of the supernatural ... for some reason this seems incredibly funny.. not sure why... :)

I always held that for God to be real he ..uhmmm has to be real, and ultimately that led to a more pantheistic view on the universe as I accepted that it is hard wired into human nature to worship "something" or "anything" even if it in the service of self. [ greed ] and a Pantheistic view tended to be more holistic and less self focused

I maintain the decline of theism is not Gods fault but those that pretend to represent him. sad really.
if one were to actually read the bible and do a realistic study of it (not go into it with attitude against it)(and not just accept the 'pastors' interpretation of it) they would find it says 'think for yourself' you are the one ultimately responsible for your own choices.

but again this is another topic..
quit it.
 
Now that is a really strange thing, I have never associated freewill to be a religious icon.

The reason is because if I remember correctly, the words "By the grace of God Go I" indicates to believers immediately that the freedom of the "I" is dependent on God's grace therefore an external party to the "I" is in control and not the "I" freewill can be deemed an illusion accordingly because it places a typically externalized God as being the ultimate responsible authority.
strange that... hmmm...
Well I'm speaking of the history of the idea. It was the reaction to Calvin's contention that the destination of all souls is known to God ahead of time (predestination) since they believe God is omniscient.

The reaction to this was voiced by Arminius, who held that God gives each person "free will" to choose that path.

Although it's used a lot in common vernacular, the correct term really is "will". The key here is that it's entirely a biological faculty, and you won't ever hear biologists speak of the "free will" of a rabbit to hide when it hears a noise, just its "will".

My purpose in mentioning this is to keep the two ideas separated since they have two different meanings.

The rest of your post whilst being excellent reading of which I feel no immediate need to be critical of, fails to deal with the basic issue I have been attempting to present.

That the criteria that freewill defy the laws of Physics, for free will not to be an illusion can be invalidated by simply referring to the evolved ability for life to stand up against gravitational attraction, thus defying the natural outcomes of that law of Gravity.

Notice if we change this to "will" the OP vanishes altogether. "will" is not an illusion. The only reason "free will" would or would not be an illusion is because God is (Calvin) or is not (Arminius) controlling the outcome of every person's life. Again, this is why I am objecting to the term being used here.
 
I would only think it a pseudo religious thread if one concludes that freewill is genuine but that it is so due to some non-material realm etc, rather than through the natural laws.

Which is strange in that I tend to think that free will is indeed real and it is due to a physics, or a science, yet to be understood or revealed by global scientific community.

I also believe in universal consciousness, etc as being physical in nature [justifiable in physics], and that may indicate why I hold the above believe in the physical nature of freewill.
The logic , reasoning is unable to discussed at sciforums due to the somewhat hysterical, religio-phobic, paranoia surrounding it.
It does though start with the issue mentioned earlier of the center of gravity, whether center of mass or Lagrangian [ cumulative] and the zero point associated.
 
Well I'm speaking of the history of the idea. It was the reaction to Calvin's contention that the destination of all souls is known to God ahead of time (predestination) since they believe God is omniscient.

The reaction to this was voiced by Arminius, who held that God gives each person "free will" to choose that path.

Although it's used a lot in common vernacular, the correct term really is "will". The key here is that it's entirely a biological faculty, and you won't ever hear biologists speak of the "free will" of a rabbit to hide when it hears a noise, just its "will".

My purpose in mentioning this is to keep the two ideas separated since they have two different meanings.



Notice if we change this to "will" the OP vanishes altogether. "will" is not an illusion. The only reason "free will" would or would not be an illusion is because God is (Calvin) or is not (Arminius) controlling the outcome of every person's life. Again, this is why I am objecting to the term being used here.

yes .. therefore free-will is as illusion-ary as the existence of God is... yes I can see what you are saying here...
 
yea cause someone once called me to the stone, saying that ghost are spirits, and I do believe that we have a spiritual side to us as a species that we have to address/acknowledged before we can be complete/whole.
so they pointed out that if I believe in the existence of our spiritual side then I must believe in ghosts. I did not have an answer..




I maintain the decline of theism is not Gods fault but those that pretend to represent him. sad really.
if one were to actually read the bible and do a realistic study of it (not go into it with attitude against it)(and not just accept the 'pastors' interpretation of it) they would find it says 'think for yourself' you are the one ultimately responsible for your own choices.

but again this is another topic..
quit it.
ok... thanks
 
I would only think it a pseudo religious thread if one concludes that freewill is genuine but that it is so due to some non-material realm etc, rather than through the natural laws.
The problem is in what you determine to be "natural laws" and how people such as yourself seems to feel there are no more "laws" to discover...and are prepared to take a strong position prematurely.
 
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