The illusion of free will

and you reckon you know those laws yes?

what laws are you referring to?
Physical laws of thermodynamics, motion, general relativity, quantum mechanics, gravity et al.
Laws of chemistry and biology.
To name a few.
It ultimately does not matter what they are, as long as you accept that they always operate in the same manner, and that the output is dependent upon the inputs (not necessarily strictly determined by).
If one can not alter the interaction without introducing another cause, which itself would be the output of a previous interaction, then freewill can be nothing but illusory, as everything is operating strictly according to the laws.
Irrespective of what the laws actually are.
unless they are just that, a manufactured perception that science will tell you is the case. accordingly 'tis all an illusion of perception or didn't you know... we all live in a "matrix" of our own creation...subjectivity vs objectivity.
That is possibly the case.
But only a genuine freewill would run counter to the laws.
what laws are you referring to? and please show evidence to support such a claim.
Any law.
By way of evidence feel free to jump off a cliff.
You will always fall according to the law of gravity, and any aerodynamics or other laws that may be in play.
There is nothing you can do to stop yourself abiding by those laws.
You might say that you could build a contraption to fly, but this will also abide by those same laws.
Everything we do is a case of interactions abiding by the laws.
And because our freewill emerges from those interactions, it must also abide by those laws.
 
as far as the claim 'no solids'

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/solidity

further in the article addressed by the russians, I read through most of it and I think it has the explanation of what I have heard..

which is:

solid is an illusion caused by the magnetic properties of the atom, if it were not for the magnetic properties of the atom, solids would pass through other solids,

others can explain this better than me, so don't scrutinize me too much on this one.


and baldee, there is a difference in free will as applied to the human condition and as applied to physics, this is a difference between apples and oranges,
we were discussing as applied to the human condition not physics, the two are not equal, just because you can prove free will does not exist in physics, does not mean free will does not exist in human nature.
 
and baldee, there is a difference in free will as applied to the human condition and as applied to physics, this is a difference between apples and oranges,
we were discussing as applied to the human condition not physics, the two are not equal, just because you can prove free will does not exist in physics, does not mean free will does not exist in human nature.
I am aware of the difference.
And it is not just that freewill does not exist in physics.
It is that what exists in the human condition, or however else you want to term it, seems to be contrary to what is possible in physics.
I'm not going to apologise for exploring that glaring issue.

If physics is a one-way street, then freewill would be the appearance of traffic going the wrong way down it.
Look closely enough and you'd see that traffic is indeed adhering to the one-way system.
And what we perceive is merely an illusion created by our consciousness.
 
@Baldeee

its a bit like this :
We have a basket with 3 oranges in it. [truth by consensus]
However Baldeee wants there to be only 2 oranges sooooooo....he decides arbitrarily to make one of the oranges an illusion.
So now we only have an illusion of a total of three oranges and that "really" there are only two in the basket..so he claims.
He then exclaims: "Nothing wrong with that is there? The conclusion I wanted is achieved . What more could *YOU* want?"

Come on Baldeee surely you can see the problem?
The problems I see are twofold:
1. You use fallacious analogies to push home a strawman of your own making (through misunderstanding) that has no bearing to the actual issue in hand.
2. You continue to focus on a point for some 5 or 6 pages for which you have already accepted an explanation.
 
I am aware of the difference.
And it is not just that freewill does not exist in physics.
It is that what exists in the human condition, or however else you want to term it, seems to be contrary to what is possible in physics.
I'm not going to apologise for exploring that glaring issue.

If physics is a one-way street, then freewill would be the appearance of traffic going the wrong way down it.
Look closely enough and you'd see that traffic is indeed adhering to the one-way system.
And what we perceive is merely an illusion created by our consciousness.

research the term 'will' in free will, it is a behavioural term as applied to humans not physics. physics have no 'will'

and yes QQ drop it already, move on.. he pry already understands but just doesn't want to 'lose any points'
(in my experience those that accuse are guilty of what they accuse the other of. like 95% of the time)
 
So when you said, you were just talking nonsense?
No, I am merely applying clarification which you had sought.
So there is no solids, liquids, or gases, right? It's all just motion, right? We just have illusions of objects?
In a way, yes.
But I would consider them categorically different illusions to freewill, as solids, liquids etc do not go contrary to the laws that govern us.
We use the term solid to describe an emergent property of a collection of atoms that behave in a certain way.
But key is that the actual behaviour and our perception of that behaviour are fairly much in sync.
With freewill, they run counter to each other.
Oh you would, would you? I thought you said,

Now you are confusing me even more. Please straighten out the mess you've created in just a few words. It's horrible.
Which part are you struggling with?
By initially saying that our appearance added to the laws, I clarified to say that it adds to our understanding of them.
That I then used the same phrasing as I initially did should then suggest to you the same meaning as has been clarified.
So the sun doesn't travel around the earth? (still confused)
The sun travelling around the earth could be said to be illusory.
With such matters it would depend on which reference point you want to use to determine "travel".
 
research the term 'will' in free will, it is a behavioural term as applied to humans not physics. physics have no 'will'
The question at hand is whether that will is free or not.
It either is or is not.
If it is not, do we at least perceive it to be, or not?
 
Has anyone yet who advocates a genuine freewill explained how it can arise?

I addressed the questions of what 'free-will' means and how it might arise in a physicalistic world in the following posts: #16 (p.1), #39 (p.2), #42 (p.3), #55 (p.3), #71 (p.4), #126 (p.7), #134 (p.7), #289 (p.15), #336 (p.17), #387 (p.20), #443 (p.23), #463 (p.24) and #475 (p.24)

Posts # 289 (p.15), #336 (p.17) and #475 (p.24) kind of sum it up.
 
I see no evidence that consciousness an reasoning is anythang other than biological... an in that respect... no more mysterious than the sinse of sight.!!!

So you think consciousness and reasoning are illusions too?

The vast majority do beleive in free will... an the rationality an sanity of the world is quite debatable... lol :)

And the reason for that is because they see it demonstrated in their everyday experience.In light of that there is simply no basis for thinking it a mere illusion.

That sounds like what free will believers do... claim "ther actions are the result of mysterious causes in the brain"... that "somehow" give rise to free will.!!!

Scientists have actually discovered the decision-making part of the brain. They can see it in action when decisions are being made. Do you have some evidence that this decision process is an illusion?

I thank its a hoot... the gratest illusion ever... that will is free :)

That's what you choose to believe.

I thank that you accept cause an effect... except when applied to free will bein an illusion.!!!

I accept reasoning and judgement as real functions of our minds that determine what actions we take. I guess we could call these processes "causes"..

The ruse is calmin that free will bein an illusion is time-consumin.!!!

You're saying making a choice takes no time at all? That an action done on impulse takes the same amount of time as one done out of decision-making? That's ludicrous. Ofcourse making a choice takes more time.

Its not perfect in that some people can see the illusion of free will... an yet... its dam near perfcet because even those who realize its an illusion still live ther lives as tho ther will was free... perty cool :cool:

Sounds like cognitive dissonance to me. Believing freewill is an illusion and then acting like it isn't. Are there other beliefs you have that you don't live according to?
 
The question at hand is whether that will is free or not.
It either is or is not.
If it is not, do we at least perceive it to be, or not?

so why bring physics into it?
But I would consider them categorically different illusions to freewill, as solids, liquids etc do not go contrary to the laws that govern us.
We use the term solid to describe an emergent property of a collection of atoms that behave in a certain way.
But key is that the actual behaviour and our perception of that behaviour are fairly much in sync.
With freewill, they run counter to each other.

how does the 'will' that runs counter to each other in your statement, apply?
will is a product of intelligence not physics, physics can't think, therefore it has no 'will' , physics can't choose different outcomes.

now we have free will so we are able to interpret the data to make it say what you want/will it to, as your discussion with QQ shows, you have the will to make your statement 'make the data fit the conclusion' and he has the will to disagree.

hmm..so if there were no free will, then we would not be able to make our arguments for or against a subject/topic, as we would not be able to direct our will to a specific self determined outcome.

so I would conclude that free will exists because if it didn't we would not be able to direct our own will.
 
so why bring physics into it?
To try to understand whether that freedom is genuine or merely a perception.
If physics suggest one and we perceive the other, that is quite telling.
how does the 'will' that runs counter to each other in your statement, apply?
will is a product of intelligence not physics, physics can't think, therefore it has no 'will' , physics can't choose different outcomes.
Are you suggesting that intelligence is not a product of physics?
If it is, and will is a product of intelligence, then will is a product of physics.
now we have free will so we are able to interpret the data to make it say what you want/will it to, as your discussion with QQ shows, you have the will to make your statement 'make the data fit the conclusion' and he has the will to disagree.
If only that was what I was suggesting. :rolleyes:
At no point did I ever suggest to "make the data fit the conclusion".
Please do not claim that I did.
hmm..so if there were no free will, then we would not be able to make our arguments for or against a subject/topic, as we would not be able to direct our will to a specific self determined outcome.

so I would conclude that free will exists because if it didn't we would not be able to direct our own will.
and this would be question begging: how do you know you are able to direct your own will?
You only have the conscious perception of the ability to do so.
But when the reality of the conscious perception is itself the question, one should not then assume it within the argument.
 
I addressed the questions of what 'free-will' means and how it might arise in a physicalistic world in the following posts: #16 (p.1), #39 (p.2), #42 (p.3), #55 (p.3), #71 (p.4), #126 (p.7), #134 (p.7), #289 (p.15), #336 (p.17), #387 (p.20), #443 (p.23), #463 (p.24) and #475 (p.24)

Posts # 289 (p.15), #336 (p.17) and #475 (p.24) kind of sum it up.
Thank you. :)
I had read those.
I think your notion of freewill is practical, and while you offer some compatabilist position, I do not see why you only follow the cause and effect back until it starts to get fuzzy, as you put it.
You mention that at this point it starts to get unpredictable, but to me that is no reason to abandon the concept of cause and effect.
It can get fuzzy but still adhere to cause and effect.
Even if it is unpredictable.
So at this point, when you drop off from cause and effect, I think you revert to the freedom being assessed by conscious perception.
And thus unable to distinguish illusion from not.
 
Baldeee, A baseball pitcher throws a pitch, and as the ball is released from the hand the ball starts heading towards the catcher's mitt. While the ball is in flight the batter decides he is going to take a swing at that pitch and he starts his swing, and then at the last split second he changes his mind and holds back and the ball hits the catcher's mitt. What was the cause and effect, and explain your version of the batter's "free will" in this example? Maybe if you start showing us examples of your version of real world "free will" then we can try to get to the bottom of it once and for all. You do want to know the truth, right?
 
Baldeee, A baseball pitcher throws a pitch, and as the ball is released from the hand the ball starts heading towards the catcher's mitt. While the ball is in flight the batter decides he is going to take a swing at that pitch and he starts his swing, and then at the last split second he changes his mind and holds back and the ball hits the catcher's mitt. What was the cause and effect, and explain your version of the batter's "free will" in this example? Maybe if you start showing us examples of your version of real world "free will" then we can try to get to the bottom of it once and for all. You do want to know the truth, right?
From a practical and appearance point of view, it would transpire exactly as you picture it would.
Everyone would think exactly what they think.
Actions would be carried out exactly as you picture them to.
He would consider himself to be making choices of what to do.

But the causes would be the vast complex web of interacting atoms, quarks, molecules etc that effect one moment to cause the next.
Molecule A moves from there to here because it is the position that results from the interactions of the previous moment.
In a simple two-body environment it might be relatively simple to calculate.
3-bodies not so easy.
Now consider each and every atom, molecule, quark, etc that are interacting.
These interactions behave according to the laws of physics, chemistry, quantum mechanics etc.
If the atoms interact according to those laws, and those laws are inviolate, what room freewill.

So no, I can't tell you what the causes are.
The batter would be consciously aware of gross causes (i.e. patterns of those interactions such as "ball moving through air", the relative positions of the bat, body, ball, speed etc) and almost certainly, if they are good, do much on instinct where they no longer need to be conscious of things.
But there is no way to infer just from looking, or from what our consciousness is telling us, whether the freewill is genuine or illusory.
 
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I see no evidence that consciousness an reasoning is anythang other than biological... an in that respect... no more mysterious than the sinse of sight.!!!
MR
So you think consciousness and reasoning are illusions too?
I thank they are nuthin more than cause-an-effect biological tic-tocks that a mechanical clock woud have.!!!
MR
Scientists have actually discovered the decision-making part of the brain. They can see it in action when decisions are being made. Do you have some evidence that this decision process is an illusion?
The decision process is absolutely real.!!!
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I thank its a hoot... the gratest illusion ever... that will is free :)
MR
That's what you choose to believe.
Well... the beliefs i have are based on cause an effect... now... if cause an effect doesnt hold true... then im wrong.!!!
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I thank that you accept cause an effect... except when applied to free will bein an illusion.!!!
MR
I accept reasoning and judgement as real functions of our minds that determine what actions we take. I guess we could call these processes "causes"..
Yes... cause an effect... not even biology escapes it.!!!
MR
You're saying making a choice takes no time at all? That an action done on impulse takes the same amount of time as one done out of decision-making? That's ludicrous. Ofcourse making a choice takes more time.
Both you'r examples use cause an effect an take whatever time it takes... but what im sayin is... it takes no more time for a believer in free will to choose milk or water... than it woud take for a non-believer to make the same choice.!!!
Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Its not perfect in that some people can see the illusion of free will... an yet... its dam near perfcet because even those who realize its an illusion still live ther lives as tho ther will was free... perty cool
MR
Sounds like cognitive dissonance to me.
Ha... i dont know of ANYBODY who is more sane than me :xctd:
MR
Believing freewill is an illusion and then acting like it isn't.
Insanity isnt a necessity to enjoy a magic show filled wit illusions.!!!
Are there other beliefs you have that you don't live according to?
I dont have any that i know of :p
 
Thank you. :)
I had read those.

That makes one person, at least. Thanks.

I think your notion of freewill is practical, and while you offer some compatabilist position,

Yes, I want to argue that free-will, as most people use the term, is compatible with causality, science and physicalism.

I do not see why you only follow the cause and effect back until it starts to get fuzzy, as you put it.
You mention that at this point it starts to get unpredictable, but to me that is no reason to abandon the concept of cause and effect.

I don't want to abandon it. (That's the compatibilism bit.) I think that it's likely that whatever's happening at the neural level that results in our making choices and decisions is entirely causal.

What I'm arguing against isn't causality, it's determinism. (I think that lots of people think of them as being one and the same. I'm trying to pry them apart with the concept of probabilistic causation.)

"I'll say that an action of mine is a free act of my own will if it resulted from my own purposes, goals, ideas, evaluations and decisions. In other words, an act of mine is free if the decision to do it arose inside me, so to speak, from a suitable employment of my own internal decision processes, and wasn't imposed on me from outside by some external force. That's typically what people mean when they say, as they might in a court of law, 'He acted of his own free will'.

The 'iron block' kind of determinism seems to do violence to this idea of free-will, by insisting that while it may seem like my acts are the result of my own decisions, which in turn arose from my own inner states and processes, in reality those states, processes and acts they give rise to, were precisely determined by how things were long before I ever appeared. Put another way, the details of my internal deliberations and the results that they give rise to were totally imposed on me by the causal force of the universe outside me."​

I'm not arguing for the existence of a soul, a spiritual mind or anything else that lies outside the realm of scientific physicalism. I'm just speculating that the part of physical nature (however causal it might be) that represents our own inner cognitive decision processes, might not be entirely determined by the rest of the universe surrounding us. The rest of the universe might not be dictating the results of our decisions to us at all, or imposing all of our choices on us.

Our decision processes probably are causally determined, to a pretty high degree of probability, by our inner states that existed a very short time previously. (A second, a millisecond.) As we extend those causal chains out temporally, especially in a system as complex as the human brain, I'd guess that determinism gets more and more probabilistic pretty fast. That needn't mean that causal chains between A and B don't exist, only that earlier state A wouldn't precisely determine what the details of subsequent state B will be.

When it comes to predicting in precise detail what a person is going to do, without looking into their heads at all (so to speak) at the time they act, without taking into account that person's own purposes, desires and motivations for doing whatever it is that they are doing, instead basing our behavior prediction merely on a description (however accurate it might be) of the rest of the universe surrounding that person, then I question whether an accurate prediction is possible, even in principle.

It certainly isn't possible in practice. Which makes me kind of wonder what sort of empirical justification exists for the assertion that free will is an illusion.

I think you revert to the freedom being assessed by conscious perception.

I do want to preserve the meaning of 'free-will' as it's used in everyday speech, in ethics, and in more technical applications like courts of law.
 
From a practical and appearance point of view, it would transpire exactly as you picture it would.
Everyone would think exactly what they think.
Actions would be carried out exactly as you picture them to.
He would consider himself to be making choices of what to do.

So he himself, and figuratively speaking, EVERYONE of sound mind would also conclude that they themselves are making choices of what to do.
So who is it that disagrees with the fact that people make choices, sometimes choices that turn out to produce the desired effect, and sometimes choices that turn out to be some totally unexpected effect?

But the causes would be the vast complex web of interacting atoms, quarks, molecules etc that effect one moment to cause the next.
Molecule A moves from there to here because it is the position that results from the interactions of the previous moment.
In a simple two-body environment it might be relatively simple to calculate.
3-bodies not so easy.
Now consider each and every atom, molecule, quark, etc that are interacting.
These interactions behave according to the laws of physics, chemistry, quantum mechanics etc.
If the atoms interact according to those laws, and those laws are inviolate, what room freewill.

Then the starting cause has to be very precisely defined, down to the the atomic level, correct? Unless the starting conditions are clearly defined at the atomic level, a basketball player can't possibly know how to make a 3 point shot, right? That would be absurd to think someone could make a basket without first knowing the atomic structure of the universe! Right?

So no, I can't tell you what the causes are.

Oh, so since you can't tell me what the cause is, then you can't talk about cause and effect, right? So there goes that concept. So you're down to the concept of free will without cause and effect. Just straight up Robotics!


The batter would be consciously aware of gross causes (i.e. patterns of those interactions such as "ball moving through air", the relative positions of the bat, body, ball, speed etc) and almost certainly, if they are good, do much on instinct where they no longer need to be conscious of things.
But there is no way to infer just from looking, or from what our consciousness is telling us, whether the freewill is genuine or illusory.

If there is no way to tell if the freewill is genuine or illusory, then it would be ridiculous to think that free will is of some supernatural origin. Are you trying to say that in the presence of ignorance, people turn to god as an explanation? The "god did it" explanation?
 
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So he himself, and figuratively speaking, EVERYONE of sound mind would also conclude that they themselves are making choices of what to do.
So who is it that disagrees with the fact that people make choices, sometimes choices that turn out to produce the desired effect, and sometimes choices that turn out to be some totally unexpected effect?
Noone disagrees that we appear to make choices.
It is merely whether the appearance mirrors what is actually going on.
Then the starting cause has to be very precisely defined, down to the the atomic level, correct? Unless the starting conditions are clearly defined at the atomic level, a basketball player can't possibly know how to make a 3 point shot, right? That would be absurd to think someone could make a basket without first knowing the atomic structure of the universe! Right?
Eh?
Why would we have to know the starting cause?
We are merely part and parcel of the causal chain.
Our consciousness latches on and tries to make sense of what it can.
But we have no need to be conscious of every cause in order to act.
At the more complex level we do things instinctively (breathing, balancing when walking etc) without needing to know even the gross causes.
But to argue that my position requires us to need to be aware of every cause is incorrect.
Oh, so since you can't tell me what the cause is, then you can't talk about cause and effect, right?
Not right.
I can't tell you how the economy works in precise detail, or who first began the system, but I know that if you work you get paid.
The rest is extrapolation and going from first principles.
So there goes that concept. So you're down to the concept of free will without cause and effect. Just straight up Robotics!
The concept remains in place.
And robotics involves cause and effect.
If there is no way to tell if the freewill is genuine or illusory, then it would be ridiculous to think that free will is of some supernatural origin. Are you trying to say that in the presence of ignorance, people turn to god as an explanation? The "god did it" explanation?
Where are you getting this notion of supernatural from??
I have not raised it.
I consider the notion to be entirely natural - even if it is illusory.
There is a way to tell if it is illusory or not, as I and others have been trying to explain.
But it is not possible to tell if your only judgement is based on how it appears.
You need to look at what is going on under the hood, so to speak.
From first principles (cause and effect etc).
But what you can not do, regardless of how you view freewill, is alter how we perceive it.
 
That makes one person, at least. Thanks.
:)
Yes, I want to argue that free-will, as most people use the term, is compatible with causality, science and physicalism.
...
I don't want to abandon it. (That's the compatibilism bit.) I think that it's likely that whatever's happening at the neural level that results in our making choices and decisions is entirely causal.

What I'm arguing against isn't causality, it's determinism. (I think that lots of people think of them as being one and the same. I'm trying to pry them apart with the concept of probabilistic causation.)
I agree, in the main.
But I don't think the issue of determinism or not is actually relevant.
The indeterminism can create additional fuzziness, but it is the causality and, presumably, the adherence to the underlying laws (even if the outputs are indeterministic) that preclude (as far as I see it) any genuine freewill.
I'm not arguing for the existence of a soul, a spiritual mind or anything else that lies outside the realm of scientific physicalism. I'm just speculating that the part of physical nature (however causal it might be) that represents our own inner cognitive decision processes, might not be entirely determined by the rest of the universe surrounding us. The rest of the universe might not be dictating the results of our decisions to us at all, or imposing all of our choices on us.
I don't think it is determined - at least not strictly.
But, as said, I think the focus on determinism is somewhat of a red-herring.
Unless we can say that the output of an indeterministic process can be somehow guided to a desired effect, then what difference does it make whether the output is determined or indeterministic or probabilistic?
It is the inability to consciously fix the output of any of the micro-interactions that is the issue.
Our decision processes probably are causally determined, to a pretty high degree of probability, by our inner states that existed a very short time previously. (A second, a millisecond.) As we extend those causal chains out temporally, especially in a system as complex as the human brain, I'd guess that determinism gets more and more probabilistic pretty fast. That needn't mean that causal chains between A and B don't exist, only that earlier state A wouldn't precisely determine what the details of subsequent state B will be.
I'm with you so far...
When it comes to predicting in precise detail what a person is going to do, without looking into their heads at all (so to speak) at the time they act, without taking into account that person's own purposes, desires and motivations for doing whatever it is that they are doing, instead basing our behavior prediction merely on a description (however accurate it might be) of the rest of the universe surrounding that person, then I question whether an accurate prediction is possible, even in principle.
This is where I think I differ.
I also think you are somehow equating freewill with unpredictability, or possibly placing too much importance on it?
Would you agree that simple indeterministic process are unpredictable, but they don't exhibit freewill?
Then why would you think that a complex process built upon the same causal processes can do?
It certainly isn't possible in practice. Which makes me kind of wonder what sort of empirical justification exists for the assertion that free will is an illusion.
Every time effect follows cause is empirical justification.
The inability to influence a random selection is another.
I do want to preserve the meaning of 'free-will' as it's used in everyday speech, in ethics, and in more technical applications like courts of law.
Sure.
 
Noone disagrees that we appear to make choices.

We appear to make choices? Do they agree that we make choices, or they don't know what's up? This is not an "appearance" thing. Do we make choices or not? It is a yes or no question. There is no debate about if we make choices. We either do or we don't. Which is it?

It is merely whether the appearance mirrors what is actually going on.

If the appearance that we make choices mirrors that we are actually making choices? I must be misunderstanding you, because it sounds like to me that you are saying that you're not sure if we make choices or not. Do we or don't we make choices?

Why would we have to know the starting cause?
We are merely part and parcel of the causal chain.
Our consciousness latches on and tries to make sense of what it can.
But we have no need to be conscious of every cause in order to act.
At the more complex level we do things instinctively (breathing, balancing when walking etc) without needing to know even the gross causes.

If you don't know the starting cause then you can't talk about cause and effect. How are you gonna talk about cause and effect when you haven't even defined what the starting conditions are? Do you choose to not define the start conditions so that later they can't be used against you?

I gave you the starting conditions, or the cause. The pitcher threw the ball (which happened at a specific point in space at a specific point in time.) The effect was the ball hit the catcher's mitt (which happened at a specific point in space at a specific point in time.) The batter made a choice to start swinging, then made a choice to stop swinging. Are you suggesting that the atoms made those choices for him? If so, can you explain how you've come to the conclusion that atoms make choices?

I can't tell you how the economy works in precise detail, or who first began the system, but I know that if you work you get paid.

So your intelligence level then also must be that you don't know how a car works, just that you put gas in it and turn the key. You don't know how any electrical device works, just that you have to plug it in and turn it on. I get that from reading your posts. What next, that you were just kidding, that you really do know a lot of stuff? Oh, maybe it's that you play the stupid card when you need it, and nobody ever detects it?
 
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