the holy grail

L

Lori_7

Go to church? I am the church!
Registered Senior Member
here's a message i got...

what is the holy grail? the cup used in communion ritual (last supper).

what is a cup? a vessel.

what did it contain? wine symbolic of the blood of christ.

what is a body? a vessel.

for what? our blood.

what is the body of christ? the church.

what is the church? his bride.

what is communion? a marriage ceremony.


because sin is said to be inherent, i assume it's genetic. our genes determine what we're born into. because jesus was said to be without sin, he must not have had this birth defect. his blood is said to redeem, to wash away our sin or in other words to rid us of this defect. so, the secret of the holy grail is it is representative of a time when we will be reborn through him with perfected blood in our veins which will restore our communion with god and each other.

cool huh?
 
We have a concept of sin because we have a collective memory of a time when we lived in paradise before Agriculture. The Middle East used to be wetter environment, better for hunting and gathering, life was relatively easy. The rains dried up and people turned to sacrifices in order to placate the Gods and make things better, and all the sacrificing made things worse, until they reasoned that their own inadequacies were the problem. It's been a guilt trip ever since then.

The church has since regressed into the magical thinking that predated it. Magic cups, and a panopoly of Gods (saints), witches, and magical amulets (relics), these are throwbacks to the religion that existed before Christianity.
 
Its not magic man, I'm talking about dna. There is something seriously wrong with us in a world of plenty.
 
There's nothing wrong with our DNA. Humanity was around for hundreds of thousands of years before our present predicament. Of course, you wouldn't learn that in the Bible. Our way of life is unprecedented on Earth. It has yet to congeal around a sustainable pattern, if it ever does. Our cultural evolution has outpaced DNA. That does make sense, since there are practical limits on how much information can be be encoded in DNA.
 
I know we're not the first "generation" (try laying that on a religious person) but what is going to perfect us? Our culture? People didn't turn to shit because they ran out of food. People are shitty and fat pigs at the same time. And you can have all the great food in the world and still die. I'm talking about eternal life here.
 
Biology. We will only eliminate the tendency to kill each other when that basic biological urge is removed. Maybe we need a drug, or maybe genetic engineering. Otherwise, eternal life will come when we are able to create artificial consciousness and live in virtual worlds.
 
Lori_7 said:
here's a message i got...

what is the holy grail? the cup used in communion ritual (last supper).

what is a cup? a vessel.

what did it contain? wine symbolic of the blood of christ.

what is a body? a vessel.

for what? our blood.

what is the body of christ? the church.

what is the church? his bride.

what is communion? a marriage ceremony.
Click to expand...

i didn't get the memo

because sin is said to be inherent, i assume it's genetic.
Click to expand...
no wonder i didn't understand; that memo must have been genetic?!?!?


I would trust a 5 yr old at telling the truth over 99% of your 40 yrs olds.

Why? Because they havent learned as much BS. (and how to use it)

At that age (5), very few even know a fraction of the words and ideology available, not to mention biased to a position of belief.

We born 'good' naturally and learn the crap from the 'accepted' paradigm of the culture (environment of peers/rearing)

so, the secret of the holy grail is it is representative of a time when we will be reborn through him with perfected blood in our veins which will restore our communion with god and each other.
Click to expand...

thru knowledge

mankind comprehending what life is and how to live forever by choice

ONLY KNOWLEDGE will build the bridges

that christ guy is an arrogant prick

the blood line may or may not be proven; i say, every one of us has lineage to the time of jesus or even adam and eve; or you would not be here!

so that same 'life' since the beginning of time, is within YOUR VEINS, too!

not just mine



pretty fair post(s) spidergoat............ now just imagine how nuts it will be when US cities are without food. ouch!
 
spidergoat said:
Biology. We will only eliminate the tendency to kill each other when that basic biological urge is removed. Maybe we need a drug, or maybe genetic engineering. Otherwise, eternal life will come when we are able to create artificial consciousness and live in virtual worlds.
Click to expand...

ooooops!


no such critter, tell ray he's a nut (as i already did)

your ever-lasting-life is the splash you leave; i suggest you get busy livin' or (you know how it goes)

no such critter as a "borg", never gonna be either


any bets?

i know the reason, technically; if you don't, then best not make the bet!
 
I'm talking long term, not in my lifetime. See "Caprica", science fiction will become science fact.
 
Bishadi;2309880 I would trust a 5 yr old at telling the truth over 99% of your 40 yrs olds. Why? Because they havent learned as much BS. (and how to use it) At that age (5) said:
I once asked a five year old if she ever thought about god and she answered no.

Born good? I think human beings are more complicated than being either good or bad. Have you ever seen the competing that goes on at the playground? Children grabbing at toys that do not belong to them? Pushing other little kids and making them cry? Children are innocent but that doesn't make them 'good'.
Click to expand...
 
Lucysnow said:
I once asked a five year old if she ever thought about god and she answered no.
Click to expand...

what's a god?

Born good?
Click to expand...
absolutely and any deviation is from what they learned from others

go to any play ground for that example (kids are not naturally mean; they learn it from others)

I think human beings are more complicated than being either good or bad.
Click to expand...
human beings can think before they act (consciousness)

children are innocent and all 'good' naturally; everything 'bad' is learned! (lies do not exists unless taught from another)

there is no such thing as genetically 'bad" (evil, corrupt, self centered) and a way to see that is no human ever born can live from birth alone and survive

all learn from others and unless there is a medical 'difference' other than personality to reactions; we are all pretty much the same (once born conscious)

that "universal equality" is something every human being on earth should already know.
 
Bishadi said:
what's a god?

absolutely and any deviation is from what they learned from others

go to any play ground for that example (kids are not naturally mean; they learn it from others)
Click to expand...

She never bothered to ask what's a god. And what evidence do you have of this inherent goodness? And if we were all inherently good then were did the first 'bad' person learn to be mean?

Kids are not inherently anything and neither are adults. Its really simplistic to break down human behavior into 'good' and 'bad'.

Hmmm. Reminds me of old Bush rhetoric.
 
Reopened

After an exchange of PMs, I think I understad what Lori was hoping to discuss in this thread, so I've reopened it.

A I understand it, the true topic is actually communion rather than the Holy Grail. I apologize for locking it previously since it makes more sense now that Lori has PM'd me.

As I understand it, she's rationalizing the nature of the Communion ritual in catholism (with variations that exist in other, non-catholic, sects). Her description of this ritual relies on the a priori assumption that Jesus, as described in biblical mythology, not only existed but existed as a divine being.

Which is one of the things that appeared to be a moment of preaching.

But, if we look past this a priori assumption, a different rationalization of the communion ritual is likely to emerge. The definition of communion (or, to commune) describes a merging, or comming together and, in that way, there is a similarity between marriage and this cult ritual. I think, however, the ritual itself goes far and beyond symbolic communion of two or more real beings and is intended as a merging of the human body and soul with that of Jesus Christ and, if the Trinity doctrine is accepted, therefore God and the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

These, of course are symbolic mergers, since in reality such things as souls, spirits, ghosts, and deities don't appear to actually exist other than in the minds of those afflicted by the superstitions of the cults that participate in the communion ritual.

In the mind of that person, such a ritual probably provides chemical satisfactions by way of seretonin excretions and management of reuptake, endorphines, etc, giving the sensation of a "religious experience." Such biochemical reactions and experiences are well documented for anyone interested, btw.

But Lori's description of the Communion ritual, while it definitely has some merit in the symbolism employed in religious marriage, is a bit of a reach. I think that the intent of sharing the "blood of Christ" (wine) and consuming "the body" (the eucharist cracker) are merely symbolic to some, but to true believing catholics, there is an actual transsubstantiation occurring in which the wine and the cracker are transformed into the blood and flesh of Jesus after consumption. This is a pretty sick belief, in my opinion, even though actual transsubstantiation is a total delusion.

In addition, to suggest that sin is "genetic" doesn't make sense unless one can first define "sin" as something that can be expressed phenotypically (i.e. if one were to define "sin" as hodgkin's disease or brown eyes then we can say it's genetic. But the definition of sin comes from a religious rather than a rational frame of mind in the way you mean it. Therefore it doesn't work the way intended with "genetic."

Anyway, I should have reviewed this thread much sooner after it was closed, but I've been a bit busy and overlooked it. Sorry Lori -the OP initially seemed a bit nonsensical but I understand what you're wanting to discuss now after the PMs.
 
ok, so in addition to the OP, let's look at christ...

he was supposedly born without sin because of his divine or immaculate conception. sin is said to be inherent, in that we are born into it and it resides in our flesh. the aspects which are inherent to our flesh are determined by genetics. therefore i conclude sin is a birth defect.

it is said that we are redeemed by the blood of christ. we are cleansed of our sin by his blood. now, most religious people think that is referring to the blood that was shed on a cross, but i don't think so. i think this is symbolic of a real cleansing of our blood making it just like his...sinless.

if the wages of sin is death, then the removal of sin would result in eternal life.

sin also hindered our communion with god (as told in genesis, the fall of man). if the sin is removed, our communion with god and each other will be restored.

the logistics of this are demonstrated (to a degree) by the ritual of communion. where i take you back to the OP with these correlations...

what is the holy grail? a cup
what is a cup? a vessel
for what? christ's blood
what is a body? a vessel
for what? our blood
what is the body of christ? the church
what is the bride of christ? the church
what is communion? a marriage ceremony

i conclude that this ritual is symbolic of a time when our blood will be cleansed of sin and communion with god and each other restored, in a kingdom of perfection and eternal life.
 
what is the holy grail? a cup
what is a cup? a vessel
for what? christ's blood
what is a body? a vessel
for what? our blood
what is the body of christ? the church
what is the bride of christ? the church
what is communion? a marriage ceremony

i conclude that this ritual is symbolic of a time when our blood will be cleansed of sin and communion with god and each other restored, in a kingdom of perfection and eternal life.
Click to expand...

that's all great.

but what if I don't believe:

he was supposedly born without sin because of his divine or immaculate conception.
Click to expand...
 
Lori_7 said:
yes...sinless blood = restored communion = perfected existence = eternal life.
Click to expand...

So if I don't believe that he was born sinless, that he was just a man that people decided to worship, like Joseph Smith or David Koresh.

What then. What if he was just a man.
 
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