The history of sexism...where did it begin? Why? Can we rid our world of it?

[wegs]

In chatting with another member here through pm, he thought 'sexism' might be a good topic to explore together, as a group here. I agreed. We tossed a few thoughts around, and I suggested that we take it from an approach that becomes more participatory, than lecturing.

Going with that, perhaps we can explore when and why sexism began? Can we rid our world of this toxic attitude and behavior? Have you yourself, ever displayed sexist tendencies? (it's ok, we won't be mad if you say ''yes'')

Interestingly, this member's pm came at an ironic time for me, as I read a thread that Gorlitz (another member here) started, titled 'The Eternalist.' That particular thread is about exploring Aristotle and his philosophy on 'eternalism.' As I was reading about Aristotle, I sadly came to the realization he would be considered today, to be a sexist. (and a bigot, as he also thought slavery was 'necessary,' but we won't go there for the sake of this discussion)

When I posted my angst about learning of that, I was told that 'well, that was the timeframe.' Really? A timeframe or era is now a defense for bad behavior? For treating your fellow man like he/she is beneath you? I understand that the sentiment wasn't a malicious one in the thread, certainly, but it got me to thinking.

Here was a brilliant mind, a man who brought much to mankind in terms of his 'thinking outside of the box' philosophies. Yet, Aristotle was rather a simpleton when it came to women.

Here is a reference, for your review...


http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&ty..._the_history_of_philosophy/v021/21.4smith.pdf

Note the different between Plato and Aristotle. Plato (at least) thought women of higher economic status, should be 'equal to men' in political/social roles. While Aristotle, not too long thereafter, thought women should be subserving men. What a bummer to read that, Aristotle, sir! :/ Note also that this is a mere summary of what I'm speaking of in terms of sexism in relation to Aristotle. (I'm not 'picking on' Aristotle, but I think he serves as an intriguing example of how a man can be both brilliant in one perspective, and rather ignorant in another.) The thread is not to be about Aristotle either, so please feel free to post particular figures in history, who seemed sexist, yet historically, they are regarded in high esteem.

So, here are the questions that I think might make for a productive discussion.

1) When did sexism start?
2) How and why did it start?
3) Does sexism exist today? In what ways?
4) How can we rid the world of such deplorable behavior?
5) Finally, has feminism helped or hindered the overall view of women's roles in society?

**and a question that does deserve attention in our day and age:

Do you think sexism exists today, against men? How?

Please post up references to your claims, as the intent is to become less about opinion, and more based on history/fact. But, opinions are of course, welcome and necessary!

*DISCLAIMER: Please refrain from bringing religion/God into the mix. That will just derail the thread--thank you in advance.

EDIT TO ADD...That's a typo in the title! Drats! It should read...'when' not 'where' did it begin.

 

[Greatest I am]

You have hit on one of my pet peeves.

Men have put themselves above women and I think men should put women above themselves and in that sense, I do not believe in equality of the sexes. To do so takes away from the moral system I have bought into and takes the sanctity out of the family.

http://blog.ted.com/2008/09/17/the_real_differ/

The law of the sea says women and children to the lifeboats first and most men know this to be the right thing to do yet when off the ships, men reverse this thinking. Strange eh?


1) When did sexism start?

I think it began here as far as this discussion is concerned.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYIIR3g&feature=related


2) How and why did it start?

In that day, women were more like chattel and men loved each other more than their women, generally speaking, as men had to hunt with each other and rely on each other for defence of the city states. Commerce even entered the equation via the Temple Prostitute. A well respected part of the community.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ9cvYB7Tes


3) Does sexism exist today? In what ways?

In many ways.

Try to imagine the thoughts going through this woman’s mind, which to me is a good representation of what men are thinking, as they go through their normal day to day interactions with women.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbwy9cVdqS1rdvimno1_250.gif

Men will feel shame. Boys who have yet to mature mentally will not.

I could not find any clips of women speaking as these men do, but if you can imagine a woman saying the same type of things about men, what would you think of those women?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6PjAYNl24E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeFhA_sL38c

Men will feel shame. Boys who have yet to mature mentally will not.


4) How can we rid the world of such deplorable behavior?

Here is an intelligent discussion of how media locks us into a sexist mind set. TED is an excellent site.

http://www.ted.com/talks/colin_stokes_how_movies_teach_manhood.html


5) Finally, has feminism helped or hindered the overall view of women's roles in society?

I think it has helped and would advocate going even further with Affirmative Action.

We in the West have progressed much in the last few years and kudos should be taken but we still have a long way to go.

Apologies for the length of this reply and the many links but I hope they add to the discussion. I like to KIS but could not here.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Wegs

I did touch on religion above against your wishes. I do not think you can divorce sexism from religion as we are products of our environment and religion is a large part of that environment.

With luck, the discussion will not accentuate this as religious discussions always seem to end poorly and I will not argue religion with anyone here.

Regards
DL

 

[arauca]

In chatting with another member here through pm, he thought 'sexism' might be a good topic to explore together, as a group here. I agreed. We tossed a few thoughts around, and I suggested that we take it from an approach that becomes more participatory, than lecturing.

Going with that, perhaps we can explore when and why sexism began? Can we rid our world of this toxic attitude and behavior? Have you yourself, ever displayed sexist tendencies? (it's ok, we won't be mad if you say ''yes'')

Interestingly, this member's pm came at an ironic time for me, as I read a thread that Gorlitz (another member here) started, titled 'The Eternalist.' That particular thread is about exploring Aristotle and his philosophy on 'eternalism.' As I was reading about Aristotle, I sadly came to the realization he would be considered today, to be a sexist. (and a bigot, as he also thought slavery was 'necessary,' but we won't go there for the sake of this discussion)

When I posted my angst about learning of that, I was told that 'well, that was the timeframe.' Really? A timeframe or era is now a defense for bad behavior? For treating your fellow man like he/she is beneath you? I understand that the sentiment wasn't a malicious one in the thread, certainly, but it got me to thinking.

Here was a brilliant mind, a man who brought much to mankind in terms of his 'thinking outside of the box' philosophies. Yet, Aristotle was rather a simpleton when it came to women.

Here is a reference, for your review...


http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&ty..._the_history_of_philosophy/v021/21.4smith.pdf

Note the different between Plato and Aristotle. Plato (at least) thought women of higher economic status, should be 'equal to men' in political/social roles. While Aristotle, not too long thereafter, thought women should be subserving men. What a bummer to read that, Aristotle, sir! :/ Note also that this is a mere summary of what I'm speaking of in terms of sexism in relation to Aristotle. (I'm not 'picking on' Aristotle, but I think he serves as an intriguing example of how a man can be both brilliant in one perspective, and rather ignorant in another.) The thread is not to be about Aristotle either, so please feel free to post particular figures in history, who seemed sexist, yet historically, they are regarded in high esteem.

So, here are the questions that I think might make for a productive discussion.

1) When did sexism start?
2) How and why did it start?
3) Does sexism exist today? In what ways?
4) How can we rid the world of such deplorable behavior?
5) Finally, has feminism helped or hindered the overall view of women's roles in society?

**and a question that does deserve attention in our day and age:

Do you think sexism exists today, against men? How?

Please post up references to your claims, as the intent is to become less about opinion, and more based on history/fact. But, opinions are of course, welcome and necessary!

*DISCLAIMER: Please refrain from bringing religion/God into the mix. That will just derail the thread--thank you in advance.

What is considered sexism , what are the symptom of of sexism ?
My mother is of different gender then I I like my mother I respect her , by association I respect other females and I like them .. So were is the sexism ?

 

[wegs]

What is considered sexism , what are the symptom of of sexism ?
My mother is of different gender then I I like my mother I respect her , by association I respect other females and I like them .. So were is the sexism ?

You sir, just from that quick post here...don't sound sexist, then. That's a nice way you put that too. (bolded for emphasis, by me)

Sexism arauca, is when people discriminate or have prejudice views, against a particular gender. It has been typically against women, by a variety of men, throughout history. Women had to fight to be able to vote. Women have had to fight to get equal pay in the workplace. Women are still often paid less than a man, as they perform the EXACT same duties at their respective jobs. So on and so forth. That's sexism. It can also be seen as stereotyping someone, based on his/her sex.

 

[arauca]

You sir, just from that quick post here...don't sound sexist, then. That's a nice way you put that too. (bolded for emphasis, by me)

Sexism arauca, is when people discriminate or have prejudice views, against a particular gender. It has been typically against women, by a variety of men, throughout history. Women had to fight to be able to vote. Women have had to fight to get equal pay in the workplace. Women are still often paid less than a man, as they perform the EXACT same duties at their respective jobs. So on and so forth. That's sexism. It can also be seen as stereotyping someone, based on his/her sex.

That is a modern issue, I am old fashion I like how it was before 1940

 

[wegs]

Wegs

I did touch on religion above against your wishes. I do not think you can divorce sexism from religion as we are products of our environment and religion is a large part of that environment.

With luck, the discussion will not accentuate this as religious discussions always seem to end poorly and I will not argue religion with anyone here.

Regards
DL

no worries, hopefully it will stay on point.

I will come back to your longer post, later.
Very interesting points, you make.

That is a modern issue, I am old fashion I like how it was before 1940

The issues I mention are considered 'modern,' but women have been battling 'sexism' for centuries. That is not a new issue.

Simply by being a woman, some men (still) think that they are somehow superior to me, simply because of my gender. That is wrong.
That's more of what we're talking about here.

 

[Greatest I am]

That is a modern issue, I am old fashion I like how it was before 1940

As a man, I can see your draw to those years.

If I was a woman, yours would sound like a sexist remark as women were still being oppressed more than today in that day.

Ever watch the show Madmen. Back it up 20 years and would you like to be a woman of that era?
I certainly would not and would prefer what is today.

Regards
DL

 

[arauca]

I really think it is hard to make a comparison , for some work female are more adaptable then man and visa verso, since we are not equal , there are room for both genders practice their talent in their own group.. Hell I would not want that man and women be treated equally.

 

[wegs]

I really think it is hard to make a comparison , for some work female are more adaptable then man and visa verso, since we are not equal , there are room for both genders practice their talent in their own group.. Hell I would not want that man and women be treated equally.

I empathize with your point; I do. But, men and women are equal as human beings, but different of course in a variety of ways. Our differences don't change the fact that we are equal as persons.

Having said that, if you and I are both qualified to do a job, and you are hired simply because you are a man, that is discrimination.
If you and I work together...doing the same tasks for an employer...both equally as well...and you get a bonus and I don't...that is sexism.
That is what I mean.

Regardless if you disagree, that is sexism and illegal to be honest.

Hard to prove but it happens every. single. day.

 

[arauca]

I empathize with your point; I do.

Having said that, if you and I are both qualified to do a job, and you are hired simply because you are a man, that is discrimination.


Lets see what kind of judgment you will make . The women in getting the Job are 22 years old married . 35 years old married and the man is 35 years old married, all a re qualified . Which would you hire . I will hire the male

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If you and I work together...doing the same tasks for an employer...both equally as well...and you get a bonus and I don't...that is sexism.
That is what I mean.
All should get bonuses

??????????????????????????????????????????????????
Regardless if you disagree, that is sexism and illegal to be honest.

Hard to prove but it happens every. single. day.

In my case I am not sexist I just protect the interest of the company

 

[youreyes]

Question zero: What is sexism?

 

[Robittybob1]

Question zero: What is sexism?

A good starting point would be to read Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism

 

[wegs]

In my case I am not sexist I just protect the interest of the company

Well, if you were in a role of hiring, and you discriminate against a potential new hire because of her gender...then you're not doing what is best for the company.

Not for me to judge you arauca, just curious as to why you would choose the male in the above mentioned scenario? If they are all qualified?

 

[arauca]

Well, if you were in a role of hiring, and you discriminate against a potential new hire because of her gender...then you're not doing what is best for the company.

Not for me to judge you arauca, just curious as to why you would choose the male in the above mentioned scenario? If they are all qualified?

Thanks for asking . As I pointed women 22 and 35 years old married . The chances are she might get pregnant , the man will not , the man at 35 years old might look for his future in the company , The woman been married probable have a husband that is the bread winner.
Now , what is your position in the choice ?

 

[wegs]

Thanks for asking . As I pointed women 22 and 35 years old married . The chances are she might get pregnant , the man will not , the man at 35 years old might look for his future in the company , The woman been married probable have a husband that is the bread winner.
Now , what is your position in the choice ?

You know what I like about u, arauca? You are honest.
Definitely don't mince words and what I find especially interesting about what you say here...
is I can't help but wonder...how many very qualified women who put themselves through college, etc...worked hard ...and perhaps need the money too for their households...are turned down because of their gender? Because you are not alone certainly in what you say here.

I appreciate your honesty even though it troubles me what you are saying here.

 

[Lakon]

Well, I must be sexist.

I believe women are different to men in many ways. I believe women are suited more to some jobs, men more to others.

I believe women should be feminine and men should be masculine. I love looking at good looking, sexy women.

I believe men are better than women in some things. I believe women are better than men at other things.

And I believe that womens and mens minds work quite differently in many important ways, such as in relationships, monetary matters, etc. There are of course, exceptions to this last point, but I'm talking generally.

 

[wegs]

Lakon;

What you describe is not sexism.
Sexism is when someone is discriminated against say for a particular job, due to gender. That's just one example.
Believing men and women are different and both may or may not do things "better" is not sexism.
I agree actually that men and women bring different inherent skill sets to the table, but that is not sexism until it turns into discrimination and stereotyping.

Further, if a woman works in say a male dominated field and is being made to feel uncomfortable strictly because she isn't "one of the guys"... that would be another example of sexism.

It becomes sexism if you refuse to hire someone based on his or her gender.
Sexism can go both ways but it has been primarily targeted against women in our history.

 

[Kholdstare]

The history of sexism...where did it begin? when male-female animals came Why? to make babies Can we rid our world of it? no

 

[Greatest I am]

The history of sexism...where did it begin? when male-female animals came Why? to make babies Can we rid our world of it? no

Not well informed my friend.

For the largest part of man's history, we lived under matriarchies that were basically peaceful and without fortifications.

In the bronze era, man built weapons powerful to make war with and that is when we began to fortify our city states.

Sexism then would have begun about 6,000 years ago.

That is when patriarchies basically began.

This is long but the main points are spoken of near the end of the scholars presentation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1bEmq_pf0

She is a drag to listen to but her science is sound.

Regards
DL