Did you miss the LOL?
Yep
Did you miss the LOL?
Let me put it this way. Imagine you suddenly find yourself in a dark place. you do not know where you are. But you have these balls around you. So, in order for you to find out where you are, you start throwing balls around you. Funny thing start happening. Every time you throw a ball in any direction, it comes back to you. what do you surmise? Most like, that you are in an enclosure with a hard wall. But if these balls keep coming back at you, what else does this tell you about this enclosure? Most likely its circular. Meaning its design like a circle.
You have figured all this, while standing just at one place. It’s the same thing we can say of science. That by the fact that we have developed a body of knowledge which deconstructs reality logically, this itself is an evidence of logical design of the reality. I.e Science is evidence that the Universe is designed. We can treat science, like the “balls” we have been throwing around in the dark, which have helped us understand reality logically, indicating a logical construction of reality. Need I say more?
I've seen this argument advanced before by some people (including one of our local parish priests), but I think it's nonsense for exactly the reasons Stranger LA gives. The fact that logic can be applied to the universe is evidence of order, certainly, but the presence of order is not necessarily evidence of design. By claiming design you are imputing intent, purpose or will, solely on the grounds that there is order in the world.
The question Sarkus and I have challenged you with remains to be addressed: how is this a testable hypothesis for design? What test can you propose, from the above, that would discriminate between the presence or absence of design in nature?
To be taken seriously, you must address this directly now, with no further diversion or evasions.
To be a intelligent designed Universe does not necessarily lead to absolute order
Life has its limitations on where it can and can not take hold
And where life can take holds no guarantees that it will survive
Intelligent design is thoughtful but in the end , doesn't really matter
If we are in gods mind , then it is trying to understand its self , because in the end there is no rhyme or reason to what this god is doing
Of course, one of the factors that I.D proponents face is that of "suffering" and the fragility of life. I believe this throws us towards the direction of considering the issue of "good and evil" When we acknowledge the presence of these two opposing forces, it leads us to the Absolutes, the Absolute good, and the Absolute evil. Which tends to bring in the probability of existence of a deity who may have these absolutes. I.e, just as each one of us can exhibit these attributes, it can also been that this deity is capable of both. Why, its the only logical conclusion to draw, because its logic. A logically reasoning creature should be a position to recognize that evil goes to evil and good goes to good. As in lie “chicken coming home to roost” “What goes round, comes round” “the Truth will out” or “Reaping what you sow” “Having ones just deserts” “having ones Comeuppance” “, getting Chastisement” “getting ones dues” or “, just-desserts” “ getting ones rewards”, “ having retribution”, “getting a recompense”,
I do not see how you can put two apparently contradictory opinions together. As it " thoughtful but in the end , doesn't really matter" If its thoughtful it should matter. I believe it matters what this God may be doing. That is the rhyme and reason for life.
"but the presence of order is not necessarily evidence of design"
Seriously!!? Do you not see that now, your statement fails the Logical Law of non-contradiction? Why don't just admit "Check-mate? Your scientific research, the tests you have been applying, the knowledge you have accumulated in Physics, Chemistry, Astronomy, Geography, all that=evidence!!
OK, now at last we are at getting at least to a position, on your part, that is understandable.
Evidently you think my statement, to the effect that design is not automatically implied by the presence of order, is logically false. Why? What is your argument? You can assert that order can only exist if there is design, but I say to you that is just a matter of subjective opinion on your part, not objective logic.
And have you a reference you can give me to this "Logical Law of non-contradiction"?
Sounds like an unwarranted assumption to me.So, when you state that “presence of order is not necessarily evidence of design” you are imputing that there could be order where there is chaos. Order results from intent for order.
In layman's terms, perhaps. In physics it is the sensitivity of a system to initial conditions, and as such an ordered system can exhibit chaos.Chaos is just random movement which is disorganized.
As pointed out, I see this as an unwarranted assumption on your part.But when you find order, there must have been an originator of this order-meaning some one interfered with disorder, and arranged an order. A deliberate, intent which was purposeful driving order into chaos, manifesting by through design.
The conclusion of any logic, no matter how valid, is only as sound as the truth of the premises.When you agree that since logic can be applied to the universe, this is s evidence of order, then you go ahead to deny intent, and purpose(design) you have thrown away logic. And this not a subjective opinion, it’s the law of logic.
Sounds like an unwarranted assumption to me.
If the universe sprang from nothing, why could the order necessary to maintain that existence not also spring from nothing? If the order was not there in the same instant, the universe would not continue to exist, so it's very existence dictates that there must be, at that same moment, the means to maintain that existence. Thus there is no issue with such order being inherent in any universe that springs from nothing and maintains its existence.
So no, your assumption is unwarranted.
In layman's terms, perhaps. In physics it is the sensitivity of a system to initial conditions, and as such an ordered system can exhibit chaos.
As Edward Lorenz put it: "Chaos: when the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future."
As pointed out, I see this as an unwarranted assumption on your part.
The conclusion of any logic, no matter how valid, is only as sound as the truth of the premises.
Since one of your premises seems to be unwarranted, and certainly not demonstrably true, the conclusion you reach is unsound.
“It’s the Law of Logic” Not “Logical Law” Sorry. It’s the law of non-contradiction which states that something cannot be both true and not true. So, when you state that “presence of order is not necessarily evidence of design” you are imputing that there could be order where there is chaos. Order results from intent for order. Chaos is just random movement which is disorganized. But when you find order, there must have been an originator of this order-meaning some one interfered with disorder, and arranged an order. A deliberate, intent which was purposeful driving order into chaos, manifesting by through design.
When you agree that since logic can be applied to the universe, this is s evidence of order, then you go ahead to deny intent, and purpose(design) you have thrown away logic. And this not a subjective opinion, it’s the law of logic.
https://school.carm.org/amember/files/demo3/2_logic/3logic.htm
As explained, if you want the conclusion to be sound, the premises need to be true, and merely assuming the truth won't cut it. This is what you are doing. Your assumptions are unwarranted in so far as we search for whatever truth is out there. You make assumptions that restrict options when no restriction need be applied. Hence it is unwarranted.Boy. oh boy!! you and your “unwarranted assumptions! Guess this is your knee-jerk reaction to a statement that might be true, but threatens your current position. We cannot avoid making assumptions. And I do not see how the assumption “presence of order is evidence of design” is unwarranted.
Logic dictates whatever it does based on the assumptions used, and the conclusion is only as truthful as the veracity of those assumptions.Logic dictates that since we are familiar with both order and disorder, and we have always seen that whenever we want order we apply design, how then can you say that the assumption of design in order is unwarranted unless you do not want to use logic?
The idea exists irrespective of whether the universe really did spring from nothing or not, so there is no dependency.The idea that the Universe sprang from nothing depends on whether it really “sprang” The Universe may have always existed.
??? Reality has been manifested through scientific logic???Premises (1)
There is a logic in every scientific body of knowledge we have developed about reality. Therefore most likely the reality has been manifested through scientific logic.
Is this intended to be a single premise? If so, why are you assuming design within the premise?Premises (2) Since we develop designs and algorithms in our models of reality, the reality has been designed with algorithm.
Same fallacy as above.Premises (3)
Since we develop these designs and algorithms by will, purpose and intent, the reality has been design by will, purpose and intent.
Again, assuming you are not merely presuming the conclusion, and that this is a premise followed by your conclusion, it is likewise fallacious.Premises (4)
Given that we are the originators of these models and algorithms, the reality has an origin with design, will and purpose.
Don't be silly. The statement, "The presence of order is not necessarily evidence of design" says nothing whatever about chaos.
You, I see, make the assertion that "Order results from intent for order." Says who? On what basis? What rule of logic is broken, if order simply exists in its own right?
Many people, including on some days myself, tend to think the wonderful order we observe in the physical world suggests - to us, as individuals - a creator, but this is a subjective feeling we have, no more than that.
You are on a hiding to nothing trying to make a logical "proof" that order must imply intent for order.
And, I have to reiterate once more that science deliberately refrains from speculating about such teleology, because it is untestable.
As explained, if you want the conclusion to be sound, the premises need to be true, and merely assuming the truth won't cut it. This is what you are doing. Your assumptions are unwarranted in so far as we search for whatever truth is out there. You make assumptions that restrict options when no restriction need be applied. Hence it is unwarranted.
I'm not sure I can make it any clearer for you.
Logic dictates whatever it does based on the assumptions used, and the conclusion is only as truthful as the veracity of those assumptions.
While human experience is that we create order out of chaos through design, we can only ever have experience of our own place within this closed universe, and as such we can not infer the same for the creation of our universe itself. It can at best be an assumption that is simply unwarranted.
The idea exists irrespective of whether the universe really did spring from nothing or not, so there is no dependency.
But indeed, if the universe always existed, there would be no creator, no designer, so such an assumption (also unwarranted, I might add) defeats the need for a designer outright.
??? Reality has been manifested through scientific logic???
Please to clarify what you mean here.
I would say that there is a logic inherent to our experience of the universe, but without understanding what you have written I can say no more without assuming too much.
Is this intended to be a single premise? If so, why are you assuming design within the premise?
If you intend this as a premise followed by a conclusion, the conclusion is fallacious as it simply assumes that reality can not arise and exhibit naturally that which we need to design in order to model.
Same fallacy as above.
Again, assuming you are not merely presuming the conclusion, and that this is a premise followed by your conclusion, it is likewise fallacious.
I mean, that scientists did not create science. It existed to be discovered, not created. Science is a feedback methodology, of understanding a system already in existence. “Science” does not create scientific laws, formula, algorithms, etc. Rather, it discovers them. They existed before discovery. So, to me, science confirms design, and therefore its in itself evidence of design.
I fully agree that science discovers things, but the laws, formula, algorithms are our attempt at modelling what is discovered, some of which is indeed surprisingly accurate.I mean, that scientists did not create science. It existed to be discovered, not created. Science is a feedback methodology, of understanding a system already in existence. “Science” does not create scientific laws, formula, algorithms, etc. Rather, it discovers them. They existed before discovery. So, to me, science confirms design, and therefore its in itself evidence of design.
I fully agree that science discovers things, but the laws, formula, algorithms are our attempt at modelling what is discovered, some of which is indeed surprisingly accurate.
But with regard the natural world, at no point does, or can, science state where or how those laws originated, other than to say "the universe appears to follow these laws" etc.
Which is why, when you claim that science confirms design, you have already assumed that laws, algorithms etc can not arise without design or without intent.
And guess what... I consider that assumption to be unwarranted.
I find it a peculiar case of cognitive dissonance for somebody who embraces a methodology that deconstructs reality with logic, not to impute logic as the design which has been use in the construction of reality. Order results from intent of order. Says who? Says Science!!