The Hallelujah Kids.... disturbing

[Bells]

I don't think we need to go so far. Think of it like Pascal's Wager. Some of us don't buy it, but these kinds have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. Whether it's responsible parenting is its own question, but if they win the bet, the answer will be "yes".

That's the problem though. What happens if they don't win the bet? One of these kids is already failing and unable to cope, but his upbringing has only ensured that his fanaticsm will continue. The father's fanaticsm only ensures that the boy will not get the treatment he needs.

 

[DoctorNO]

The terrifying aspect for me while watching this documentary was that these were not normal children. They were completely immersed in preaching, and this was fully encouraged by their father. The father literally ignored Shaun and his continual descent into madness, concentrating on his new project, 10 year old Jacob who could draw in the crowd. The sad part of this story is that one knows that Jacob's fate could be the same as his brother if his father's ministry fails and they have to take to the road again.

Big deal. So long as they are not harming people, preaching hate crimes, displaying obscenities, or harming each other, its really none of our business.

That's the problem though. What happens if they don't win the bet? One of these kids is already failing and unable to cope, but his upbringing has only ensured that his fanaticsm will continue. The father's fanaticsm only ensures that the boy will not get the treatment he needs.

Try raising your own child before you try judging how other people raise theirs. That pastor's son is in much better condition than many other western kids.

Praise the lord? Praise for what? This child has not had a chance to be a child.

Says who?

The kid didnt have enough social life because of the way they make their living. But on the up side they did have a close family relationship. And they were happy that way, the kid said so. No problemo. Sure he has a couple of nightmares. But religious people sometimes have such nightmares too, speaking from experience. Its just more frequent with them I guess.

 

[Bells]

Big deal. So long as they are not harming people, preaching hate crimes, displaying obscenities, or harming each other, its really none of our business.

And the hate they spread about homosexuals, for example, some would classify that has being hateful... wouldn't you say? Had you watched the program, you'd have seen how hateful and dangerous some of their preaching actually was.

Try raising your own child before you try judging how other people raise theirs. That pastor's son is in much better condition than many other western kids.

Better condition? Hmmm... lets see now.. The majority of Western kids get to go to school for example. Get an education that will allow them to deal with and live in the big wide wild world. Not live out of a car. How better that pastor's son has it... And Doc, believe me, if I were to ever be able to actually have a child, I can assure you that my child would not be raised as these two kids have been.

Says who?

The kid didnt have enough social life because of the way they make their living. But on the up side they did have a close family relationship. And they were happy that way, the kid said so. No problemo. Sure he has a couple of nightmares. But religious people sometimes have such nightmares too, speaking from experience. Its just more frequent with them I guess.

Doc, this goes beyond having a social life. This kid can't cope with any aspect of the world that exists outside of the one his father has created for him. Drop this kid in a school and he'd probably kill himself. And no, the kid did not say he was happy. What he did say was that he was unhappy. And it's not just 'a couple of nightmares'. He's autistic and has received absolutely NO treatment for it. At one point in the documentary when he was not able to take to the pulpit because the crowd was so enamoured with his younger brother, he was found by the people, who did the doco, to be taking his pulse... because he didn't think he had one anymore as he thought he'd become a vampire. One would say something like that goes beyond having a few nightmares.

And a close family relationship? He rarely ever sees his mother, who is deeply troubled by the fact that he son is not receiving any treatment and is solely obsessed that the devil was out to get him. His father thinks that his having retreated from the world but not the pulpit is God's work... that it's alright that he never leaves the house except to go to church... that its a sign of faith from God... that he's been touched by God... therefore as far as the father is concerned... he doesn't need any treatment at all.

 

[DoctorNO]

Homosexuals? Where in the article does it even mention that word? or the word 'gay'? Now if you are just making a wild guess just because homosexuality is demonized in the bible, then dont pick on that father & child team because would hardly be alone in this. Mullahs, Imams, rabbis, priests, and pastors wont be any different. Thanks to religion.


Many western kids are on drugs, on sexual immorality, disrespect of parents and authority, petty crimes, underachievement, internet addiction, etc. Halleluiah kid is much better than these. At least he is honored by people who are impressed by his talent of preaching. I myself would respect him for dedicating his life for the service of others. Not all kids choose to follow in their daddy's footsteps.

Of course can assure me that your child would not be raised as these two kids have been. You are not a traveling preacher. You are not a traveling circus performer. You kinda like stick in one place. So of course your kids would have more chances at getting a formal education and getting long term friendships. But good luck in raising them into becoming good adults who has very good relationships with you.

Also notice that much of the heartache were the result of the divorce. Something that most broken families go through. So the child rearing and the life style is not entirely to blame. Its the deadly combination of these 3. A preacher with broken marriage is a very bad thing, especially that the family is religious.

Bells, I doubt that a god fearing kid would kill himself. Dont exaggerate too much. The trio is living a life of public service. Im sure they are familiar of different external scenarios. They may not be trained enough to deal with them but Im sure they could find ways to cope. We humans are very resilient creatures.

The kids were very close to both their parents. Which injured them too much when parents had split up. Could happen to you and your future kids too. who knows? Could happen to me too that my daughter has greater bonding with me than my wife. If we split and she takes her off, it would devastate her. (good thing my wife has great bonding with me too ehehehe. )

Bells, this is not a unique scenario.

 

[Tiassa]

What happens if they don't win the bet?

Then nothing really matters, and the Blind Webster earns a brief moment of rejoice. But without a known moral center to the Universe, everything becomes mere convention amid the amoral storm of life.

Doesn't change my opinion, though: I think it's psychosis.

It is not necessary to understand; it is enough to adore.
The god may be of clay: adore him; he becomes GOD.
We ignore what created us; we adore what we create. Let us create nothing but GOD!
That which causes us to create is our true father and mother; we create in our own image, which is theirs.
Let us create therefore without fear; for we can create nothing that is not GOD.

(Perdurabo)​

 

[gambi]

I just saw this documentary about an hour ago, and it also disturbed me, to the point that I searched for more information on the family, and then I found this I myself am a born again Christian, and I have committed my life to serving God sinse I was little also. But my life was nothing like the life of these kids. I had a life, I've had friends, and my parents have never forced me into anything. I believe that children can have just as much of an annointing as adults can, many mighty leaders in the Bible were very young. I don't doubt that the kids have a calling from God on there lives.
I do however feel that the way they are going about it is wrong. Many Pentecostal and Holy Ghost filled people get too carried away with fighting demons and the devil and they forget about there relationship with God. They forget that Jesus not only cast out demons while he was on earth, but he showed love and compassion to everyone he saw, and he made lasting friends. He also had a childhood, and he didn't even begin traveling and ministering to people until he was almost 30. I believe that God can have a calling on your life, you can even know about the calling, but that doesn't mean that it happens right away.
I don't know exactly whats right and wrong in the situation of this family. I do believe that Shaun has a calling on his life, and God's heart is being broken seeing him being so tormented. I truly believe that he needs help, and the fact that his father is ignoring not only his mental issues, but him himself greives my heart. Sometimes all it takes is alittle love to make a huge difference.
As I read all the replies, I noticed that everyone was on 2 ends of the case, either you didn't believe in God and the Bible and were angered at the story, or you believed that what this father was doing was right. But I remind you that just because of one persons mistakes, it doesn't prove that an entire religion is wrong. God is real, and he is alive in the hearts of many people, including myself, and he is doing miracles, and I believe that he hasn't forgotten that family. And we can't forget them either. If you are a believer please remember to pray for them, for wisdom. Pray that that mans eyes be opened to the mistakes hes making, and pray for those boys... they need it.
I am not at all saying that I agree with these boys traveling so much and not having a place to call home, it is wrong, I dont' agree with it, what they are doing doesn't line up with the Word, and I agree that the father shouldn't be allowed to treat his kids like this, they should have a place to call home and a life. God created joy and he created a sense of humor, we're allowed to be happy, and when the joy is taken out of life you know that your focus is off. So yeah, thats how I feel about the situation

 

[em74]

hi, oddly enuff, i just turned on the tv randomly whilst eating my lunch and caught the program too. I too am just blown away, so much so that i had to look up on the net to try and find out what happened to the family and in particualar shaun? thinking about it, i wonder if what happened to him, is just pyschological abuse, akin to sexual abuse, especially the bit where the child gets replaced as he gets older, by the younger child, that is a perfect picture of a pedeophile. The whole things was stunning, and heart wrenching. I understand first hand that sort of 'religion' and its surrounding, as i was brought up around it and spent a good portion of my teens in a similar cult like environment - which subsequently - seriously damaged aspects of my relationship and beleifs in god. Whilst i still beleive that jesus is the christ, and in such things as the holy trinity, i allow myself to continue to search and ponder spirituality in many forms, i no longer care to pedantically maintain such things as 'god is definately a male'...a silly example maybe, but nevertheless real for me, God could well be a black female...in fact i think i'd like that! anyway, to get back to the subject, shaun where ever you are, i pray to God (maybe a woman of color perhaps?...) that you are well, and that you have the chance to experience life as the beautiful creator intended it, with freedom and wonder, compassion and love. arohanui brother.

 

[Tyler]

Interesting. In Judaism you really shouldn't be learning religion properly until you're a man. Before that you learn only traditions. Perhaps something to do with this was the reason.

 

[Xev]

Perhaps.

There's also the issue of intellectual development. Judaism is a much more complex religion than Baptist Christianity - I'd say more intellectually rich and challenging than any form of Christianity, but there have been issues in Christianity that daunted the likes of Aquinas and Anselm.

In any case, Baptism and almost all surviving forms of Christianity are not very intellectually challenging, even for the priest who undertakes their study. Baptism in particular stands out for the childlike nature of its dogma - bright colors, black and white moral judgements, comforting figures, lots of singing.

Baptists have dumbed down Christianity into "Jesus died on the cross to remit your sins, follow him or be punished" It's easy for a child to explain that, to teach it. Given Christianity's fetishizing (literal for Catholics!) of children and a childlike state, it is not suprising that you have children explaining the whole stupid mess.

Judaism, being some 2500+ years of tradition, argument, change and adherence, is not something a child can easily wrap his mind around.

What's the core tenent of Judaism? What does it mean to be Jewish?

those questions require more serious and more complex thought than

What's Christianity? What does it mean to be a Christian?

Young children aren't mentally capable of understanding Judaism, wheras they could easily be capable of understanding Baptist Christianity.

Anyways....

Yes, it's somewhat disturbing.

On the other hand, so what? Is a child's extreme indoctrination into the cult of Jeezus that much worse than his indoctrination into any other worldview?

If you put your kids down for three hours a day in front of the t.v - you're indoctrinating them. If you send them to school for eight hours a day you are indoctrinating them and if you raise them with a certain lifestyle, whether it be smoking pot with your lesbian lover or saying grace around the punctual family dinner, you are indoctrinating them.

Social life, and as humans it is not something we can escape, necessarily involves indoctrination. Hell, David Hume observes that our idea of cause and effect and future event is indoctrinated - I don't know a priori that the sun will rise tomorrow, I've simply been indoctrinated through repetition into beliving that it will.

There is no line to be drawn. Yes, the man in the story is a wacky Christian, yes, Christians are really kind of pathetic. And?

 

[PinkSugar]

I first saw this documentary tonight. This film so upset me that I actually searched on the web and found this thread.

Am I the only one who saw the incredible stupidity of the people in this documentary? This has nothing to do with religion. These are stupid dysfunctional people breeding stupid dysfunctional kids, traveling around talking to other stupid dysfunctional people. If all the stupid dysfunctional people stay together, then they don't realize how stupid and dysfunctional they are, or be required by law to fix it.

This film reminded me of all the documentaries about crack whores and junkies who hang out together and form their own little crack-whore-junkie societal rules and values, and only hang out together because a) they're too addicted to do elsewise and b) hanging out together bolsters them against the horrified stares of the normal. Pathetic.

 

[justdave]

Hi, i saw a few minutes of this program on TV the other night. It was late and i dozed off not long after it started. I didnt even check to see what channel it was on, now i cant find any info on it. I would like to see the entire program if its replayed. What channel was this aired on - was it discovery channel? And what was the exact title of the program, was it The Hallelujah Kids?

Thanks for any info and help.

 

[Sebastian B.]

I saw something similiar a while back on the news. They interviewed these these two kids that came from a devout evangelical christian family. One was six years old and I couldnt believe how she was talking about being a born again christian, and sputtering forth this perfectly recited propaganda. This was not a question of doubt in her mind, and most likely never will be. Thats what shocked me most. These children were indoctorinated with these beliefs from such a young age, that it seems psychologically impossible they could ever change them. I dont believe this is the way to do things, especially raise children. It's inevitable that a child will have some of the properties of its parents, but the way this girl (and her brother) spoke at such a young age was simply shocking, they had no chance to form their own opinion or make their own descisions. I doubt they even understood all of the concepts they were speaking of...

 

[Entropic]

k, now to see it from a logical point of view. Would the wisest child not learn from his own mistakes than indoctrinated? Would a child who is indoctrinated be able to see clearly? What are these beliefs that are being indoctrinated into children based upon?

k, first off, the best learning occurs when we learn for ourselves, not spoon fed, this is the point where i see the folly of religion. You try to teach 1000 10 year old children how to do maths just by telling them how to do it, and then try to teach 1000 10 year old children how to do maths by 'assisting' their learning by presenting them with situations and letting them figure out for themselves. Of course the second lot of 1000 children will learn better, because they UNDERSTAND what they have learnt, rather than just accepting it for what it is.

A child born into a belief system sees the world and events from that perspective. It is not his perspective, it is his religions perspective. This means we have millions of children not thinking for themself, but asking "god" (AKA priests) what to do in their situation, rather than failing and learning.

Religion is based upon "blind" faith. You cannot prove any of the events told in the bible happened. You say the bible itself is proof, as that is how your parents convinced you when you had the simple mind of a 7 year old. I don't know if you notice south, but your arguments resemble that of a an argument a parent would use to convince his 7 year old son.

 

[top mosker]

I caught this program as well - quite disturbing. I wouldn't believe half of it had I not just been on a particularly eye opening trip to the south, where I ran into a kid exactly like that. He started preaching to me in the middle of a parking lot (I was asking him if he would help legalize medical marijuana ironicaly) about being born again and how jesus would save me. Trying to stay reasonable, I explained that I choose philosophy and the scientific method over simplistic creation stories written thousands of years ago (in so many words). And he went right back into his loop of logic without even blinking. 'Zombification' was the word that came to mind.

Let's not forget all the "apocolyptic" theories presented by pat robertson's cult... Religion is a very dangerous thing. Especially when imposed upon an uneducated population.