The Garden of Eden

[invert_nexus]

People yesterday isn't dumber than people today.

Not dumber, but less knowledgeable. Surely you can't deny that? They knew next to nothing about the world. They knew next to nothing about productive means of acquiring information about the world. So in the absence of these methods, they confabulated a wondrous world of gods and spirits. Rules and laws. Judgement and punishment. Prophecy and myth. They did these things because they knew no better. They had no alternative.

The problem with this is that this is an artifact of ignorance. It is based on no empirical evidence and refuses to allow empirical evidence to override it's faith. Religion has put us through at least one dark age already. There will be more should it be allowed to continue. There is one brewing today, right now, as we speak. Would you have your children live in the dark? In the light of god? I know, you would say yes to the latter, no to the former. Unfortunately, they are both the same thing.

I make no bones about it. Religion, while having some good side effects, is an emotional crutch. It is irrational and despises ration. There will be a new dark age. I have no doubts about this. The only question is when. And how long will it last this time? Will we survive this time?

 

[Leo Volont]

Religion has put us through at least one dark age already.

You need to study History. Religion did not destroy our Civilization -- Religion created it.

Study the dynamics of the Rise and Fall of Civilizations. Civilizations rise on Religion -- the Institutions of Religion foster the morality and sense of Community which make Civilization possible. Civilizations collapse when the concentration of wealth centers upon those who become skeptical of Religion and become amoral, thus with-holding from Society the capital required to keep up the infrastructures necessary for the broader economy and security of the Civilization. Rome fell because a few Roman Senators reduced most of the population to slavery and didn't bother repairing the roads, bridges, and canals. They though private security could do the job of public armies and allowed the public armies to collapse into bands of brigands which soon overwhelmed their private security armies. Without organized security, foreign invasion was able to flood in.

Catholicism provided the framework around which Civilization was able to rise up again.

 

[Leo Volont]

There will be a new dark age. I have no doubts about this. The only question is when. And how long will it last this time? Will we survive this time?

Dark Ages occur when the infrastructure of Civilization collapses. This is nearly always seen in the collapse of government. As long a Government can secure its borders and collect taxes, Civilization survives. It is when Government is overthrown, or replaced by a Government of questionable legitmacy which cannot collect taxes or sustain infrastructure, that you have the danger of a Dark Age.

The term of a Dark Age depends on how long it takes to establish what amounts to an accepted legitimate Government that can again maintain social and economic infrastructures. It need not take that long. Europe was impeded by repeated foreign invasions -- just when they were about to establish some order, in would come another wave of huns or vikings and put it back to square one. But if a Civilization collapses in an otherwise stable world, things can come back rather quickly. Look at China. The Chinese Communist Revolution amounted to a collapse of Civilization, but in only 50 years order has been re-established. Ofcourse they will have the problem that Chinese Civilization always has -- a rapid increase in concentration of wealth by those with no moral vision. Typically Chinese Civilization mushrooms up for 150 or 200 years until the Wealthy Few have cornered effectively all wealth and then shut down the Emperial Government by refusing to pay taxes. We have a collapse and then 50 to 100 years of re-stabilization and then the cycle repeats. A workable Religion Morality could extend the Term of Civilization. The forces of Greed must be mitigated. Religion is not the problem, but the Cure.

 

[Katazia]

Laser Eyes,

Silly me thought you were someone actually trying to learn the truth about the world and have a serious discussion.

Indeed, very silly of you. Religion doesn’t offer truth only fantasies. Truth will come from elsewhere.

Now I find out you actually have a completely closed mind on the subject.

Quite right. Religion is something we need to remove from the world not encourage and embrace.

You refuse to accept even the possibility that God exists or that the history of the world recounted in the Bible might be true.

I did once as a devout Christian some 46 years ago, but decades of analysis and investigation convinced me beyond doubt that it is all fantasy. It lacks any objective credibility and is a dangerous influence on mankind.

So what was the point of the discussion?

Debate practice in preparation for confronting more Christians directly on their own turf. What was your objective?

You could have just told me in the beginning: "I do not believe such a thing as God exists, the Bible is not God's word, Adam and Eve are mythical figures and nothing you say is going to make any difference to what I believe."

Yet you enjoyed putting your posts together just as I did. Did you really expect that you would convince anyone?

.. there might just be one open-minded person who starts thinking along the lines of "Could there really be something to this story?"

Take care with the open/closed minded accusations. Remember you are closed minded to all other possibilities other than the one that God did it. I deeply considered for a long time the Christian option and have firmly rejected it and have been and am actively pursuing many other alternative explanations for life the universe and everything. In a very real manner my mind is far more open than yours.

And I don't blame you for your beliefs. I used to be a hardcore atheist for many years. I used to strongly believe that there was no such thing as a God, that man evolved from simple animals and that the Bible was just a book of fiction written by men.

And what corrupted that line of reasoning? (Genuine question).

What is most interesting however is that you apparently have a strong need to try and disprove the Adam and Eve story

Well no not really, it is just one of numerous areas of Christians beliefs that appear as nonsense.

and also that you assert that God (who you don't believe exists) is "a sadistic murderer", "a sadistic monster" and "the real evil". If you absolutely believed that there was no such thing as a God and that the Adam and Eve story was pure fiction then you wouldn't feel the need to vilify God or denigrate the Adam and Eve story.

LOL, sorry I was just trying to wind you up as it does for so many Christians when their emotionally based beliefs are attacked with opposites. But the statements show the implications of an impossible god when paradoxes are exposed. Please don’t fool yourself that I really believe a god exists and am just throwing hate at it. Personal gods of the Christian type are simply too ridiculous to be taken seriously, they simply do not exist – As Einstein said –

.. in an interview with Professor William Hermanns, he said: "I cannot accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him I would be a liar." Einstein: the life and times by Ronald W. Clark, World Pub. Co. , NY, 1971, p. 622

I suspect that you use the notion of an evil God to convince yourself that there is no God.

Is this how you tied yourself in knots and the reason you rejected atheism? No, you are not close – I have no such animosity towards things that do not exist.

If God is evil then you don't have to deal with him. It is a simple way of avoiding the issue.

Dream on, I have never had any such inhibitions or aberrations.

I’ll leave you with another quote from Einstein which seems to reflect my perspective in at least the context of the Adam and Eve myth – I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. From the Einstein Archives about a letter dated 5 August 1927.

Kat

 

[Laser Eyes]

Katazia,

Debate practice in preparation for confronting more Christians directly on their own turf. What was your objective?

No objective really. Just to answer questions that people have. I love the line in the Spiderman movie when Peter Parker's uncle says: "With great power comes great responsibility". I agree with that statement and I would add to it: "With great knowledge comes great responsibility".

Yet you enjoyed putting your posts together just as I did. Did you really expect that you would convince anyone?

Not at all. I don't expect to convince anyone. The chances of that are one in a million. People do change their beliefs about the existence of God and whether the Bible is God's word but it doesn't happen very often.

Take care with the open/closed minded accusations. Remember you are closed minded to all other possibilities other than the one that God did it. I deeply considered for a long time the Christian option and have firmly rejected it and have been and am actively pursuing many other alternative explanations for life the universe and everything. In a very real manner my mind is far mre open than yours.

Good point. Yes in a way my mind is closed in the sense that I am of the view that what I believe right now is the absolute truth. However that is something I would never have said during the years I was an atheist.

And what corrupted that line of reasoning? (Genuine question).

Well first off let me tell you that I was the king of all atheists. Whenever some religious nut needed putting down my friends would send me into action. There's nothing worse than a smart ass with brains. If I was passing someone preaching in the street I always went over to them to have some fun and show them how much smarter I was. Or if someone knocked on my door and tried talking about God boy did they ever get it. They couldn't leave fast enough. Here is a typical conversation between me, the King Atheist (KA) and the Religious Nut (RN):

KA: Hi, what's this about?

RN: I'm talking to people about the Bible and Jesus Christ. Did you know that Jesus died for you?

KA: Did I ask him to?

RN: Well Jesus died for all sinners because he loved them.

KA: Look pal, I don't believe there is a God. If there was a God he would have told us that he exists.

RN: God did tell us he exists. He gave us the Bible and that tells us many things about him.

KA: THE BIBLE! That's just a book written by men.

RN: Can I just show you where it says ...

KA: I'm not interested what it says in there. A book doesn't prove a thing.

RN: But the Bible is God's word. The writings are inspired by God himself.

KA: I just told you I don't believe there is a God. If you want me to believe in God then make him appear right now.

RN: It doesn't work like that.

KA: Hey if God wants me to believe in him then why wouldn't he appear? That's all I need, just make him appear RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. If he does that then I'll believe there's a God. If he wants me to believe in him then he'd do it.

RN: God created you and all the world around you. How do you think you got here?

KA: Well I don't know about you but my parents created me.

RN: Did they create the earth too?

KA: Hey pal, are you trying to be smart with me? Haven't you ever heard of evolution and the Big Bang?

RN: But how did life begin?

KA: With a BIG BANG. I just told you that. What are you deaf?

RN: I probably can't help you but it was nice talking to you.

KA: (walking away) You can't help anyone pal including yourself.

So how did the king of all atheists do an about turn? It was as simple as this. One day I decided to open my mind to the possibility that God exists. That's it. That's all it took. The moment I did that I knew that there was a God. Absolute certainty. Nothing supernatural, nothing spiritual about it. I didn't change my mind based on this argument or that argument. No-one else was involved. All that happened was I was willing to accept the possibility that I might be wrong, just the possibility mind you, nothing more than that. But I completely opened my mind, no holding on to anything that went before. I was willing to believe there was a God and deal with whatever consequences there might be. I think I did it because I realised that I had been believing there was no God based on nothing. I had never proven to myself that there was no God and no-one else had proven it to me. I had adopted atheism out of convenience.

LOL, sorry I was just trying to wind you up as it does for so many Christians when their emotionally based beliefs are attacked with opposites.

Don't you think it is possible for Christian beliefs to be based on solid evidence and logic? Conversely is it not possible that atheistic beliefs are based on emotional reasons?

But the statements show the implications of an impossible god when paradoxes are exposed. Please don’t fool yourself that I really believe a god exists and am just throwing hate at it. Personal gods of the Christian type are simply too ridiculous to be taken seriously, they simply do not exist.

You are of course free to reject the answers I give to questions about the Adam and Eve story. But you have not proven that what I said could not be right. You have not pointed out anything in my explanation which is physically impossible or illogical.

 

[Leo Volont]

Dear Lazor,

No, your instant conversion was because of an intercession in your behalf. During your career of cleverly insulting the Religious, some minor saint took a shine to you and did a course of penance and prayer in your behalf. So your conversion was a Gift. You think you opened your mind, but, really, your mind was opened for you.

I myself culminated a long Religious and Philosophical Career by becoming a Marian Catholic, and, using my insight, can guess that I owe my Catholicism to a Priest I met years ago when I was a Practitioner and High Initiate of Yoga. I had spare time and volunteered to help him with the poor. It does not take much more than that to put an intercession into motion.

 

[Cyperium]

Leo Volont:

Still, as soon as you fix a pre-determined future with the premise that God is All Powerful, you automatically open yourself up to the Atheist Charge that God is responsible for all of the World's Evil. Why go there by guessing that there is some Higher Truth over Free Will?

Besides, all the talk that Time is a 'Real' Dimension only emphasize that it is 'real' in the mathematical sense. As far as 'Real' meaning what can be seen and touched, the Past is gone, and the Future has not happened yet. The only thing that is Real, is the Moment. The Past may leave a trail of evidence, but the Future unknowable in every way, except in the sense that we know which direction we are going. As the Mariners say, "we are steering by our wake"

Both past and future can be seen now, if you keep your eyes opened. There will allways be remains for the past, and there has to be buildingstones for the future. "Buildingstones" is of course just a image not actual stones...

I feel that there is some higher truth over free will. I think that even scientist know that, though they use it to prove that there isn't a free will and that the "higher truth" - or if you want - "truth beyond our understanding" creates the illusion of free will. I'm pretty sure that there is a higher truth to it all. But it's up to us to *believe* if that higher truth is indicating God or no god. We haven't found everything yet. Thus there will allways be a higher truth available for believers and unbelievers to interpret their own way.


invert_nexus:

Not dumber, but less knowledgeable. Surely you can't deny that? They knew next to nothing about the world. They knew next to nothing about productive means of acquiring information about the world. So in the absence of these methods, they confabulated a wondrous world of gods and spirits. Rules and laws. Judgement and punishment. Prophecy and myth. They did these things because they knew no better. They had no alternative.

Still, assuming that they did these things because they knew no better, is still wrong. The ancient greeks speculated about the atom, not because of some scientific proofs, but because they figured that we shouldn't be able to split something forever, it should be a smallest part that is undividable, otherwise it would be infinite. Still at this time we don't know. We know that the atom isn't the last part, we have quarks, but we don't know if there are smaller parts like strings or if the quarks is made from something too. So still we don't know better than the ancient greeks (about that matter) we just got further on the path that they began walking.

My point is that intuitivly we can know the way it works.

Also, it wasn't just because of lack for knowledge that humans at all times have believed in gods and higher beings, we are made to, there are even a area in the brain dedicated to it.

The problem with this is that this is an artifact of ignorance.

Doesn't at all need to be a result of ignorance. That the church said that the earth wasn't round is one thing, but that was what the church said, the church has been wrong before and in some ways could be wrong now too. It's up to the members of the church to build it. To bring forth new ideas about God and find new ways of interpreting the message so that it comes closer to the truth.

It is based on no empirical evidence and refuses to allow empirical evidence to override it's faith. Religion has put us through at least one dark age already. There will be more should it be allowed to continue. There is one brewing today, right now, as we speak. Would you have your children live in the dark? In the light of god? I know, you would say yes to the latter, no to the former. Unfortunately, they are both the same thing.

I don't know much about the dark ages. I want them to live in the light of God. That isn't darkness, but where the light is the cracks are visible.

I make no bones about it. Religion, while having some good side effects, is an emotional crutch. It is irrational and despises ration. There will be a new dark age. I have no doubts about this. The only question is when. And how long will it last this time? Will we survive this time?

It isn't irrational if you understand it. A easy concept can still be made irrational by those that don't understand it, it happens all the time, just put something in a bad light and see what happens.

 

[Laser Eyes]

Dear Lazor,

No, your instant conversion was because of an intercession in your behalf. During your career of cleverly insulting the Religious, some minor saint took a shine to you and did a course of penance and prayer in your behalf. So your conversion was a Gift. You think you opened your mind, but, really, your mind was opened for you.

I myself culminated a long Religious and Philosophical Career by becoming a Marian Catholic, and, using my insight, can guess that I owe my Catholicism to a Priest I met years ago when I was a Practitioner and High Initiate of Yoga. I had spare time and volunteered to help him with the poor. It does not take much more than that to put an intercession into motion.

Can you show me where it says that in the Bible?

Also, I don't know if you can call it an "instant conversion". All that happened is I went from someone who believed there was no such thing as God to believing there was a God and he created the world and everything in it. At the time I still had no idea if God was the author of the Bible or whether the true religion was Islam, Christianity or something else. That all came later.