The Five Steps to Peace

[Katazia]

Jan Ardena,

Science is man’s only proven method for discovering knowledge. Knowledge is empowering and enables wisdom. Technologies are man’s methods for implementing the knowledge provided by science and can range from the soft technologies such as applied psychology and the social sciences, to the harder technologies of better communications such as the internet and to the hard technologies of flying and landing a spacecraft on Mars.

In every aspect of human life knowledge is required to provide progress and improvements and to facilitate a greater understanding of ourselves.

Your religious and spiritual ideas provide no knowledge and do not further man’s understanding of the universe or himself, such ideas are simply worthless crap.

Kat

 

[Katazia]

Hevene,

….there is no right or wrong (their definition changes over time). If we only look at things from what works and what doesn't, it will be much easier to change things.

Then explain how murder and rape are NOT wrong.

Of course there is right and wrong, some things work and some things do not because there is right and wrong. And having the courage to judge others when their actions are clearly wrong is something too many people shy away from.

Admit it, everyone will defend what they think is right, some even to their death.

I will indeed defend my family from being attacked right up to and including my death.

Without a common set of moral values society will become chaotic.

Kat

 

[Hevene]

Then explain how murder and rape are NOT wrong.

Of course there is right and wrong, some things work and some things do not because there is right and wrong. And having the courage to judge others when their actions are clearly wrong is something too many people shy away from.

No one does anything wrong given their model of the world. A murderer only murder because they think they have to do that in order for them to survive. Rape only happen because the society had and is still restricting sexual behaviours. They don't see other choices, for them those are the only things to do to help themselves. It is the society who had neglected them and we are blaming others for that. Until we recongise we are the problem, the problem cannot be solved.

Right and wrong changes over time, so which version of right and wrong is really right? What's right today might be wrong tomorrow and vice versa. If we kept on judging others, we will blame others, we will keep on waiting for others to change, thinking that will solve the problem. Like I said before, if we keep on blaming others, the problem will not be solved. We have to take responsibility.

I will indeed defend my family from being attacked right up to and including my death.

And I will too defend my family, but defending wouldn't be neccessary if the problem is solved, ie it wouldn't be neccessary if we take the responsibility now.

Without a common set of moral values society will become chaotic.

The soceity is chaotic given our moral values today. The society will become less chaotic if we are willing to look at things as what works and what doesn't. If we are looking for peace, everyone should ask themselves "is war going to bring peace?" or "if more car bombs will bring peace" etc.

 

[Katazia]

Hevene,

The society will become less chaotic if we are willing to look at things as what works and what doesn't.

It's called Secular Humanism.

Car bombs and suicide bombers are from the world of religion.

Kat

 

[Hevene]

It doesn't matter what you call it, just what works and what doesn't. If my view works, would you be willing to examine it? Or deny it by calling it Secular Humanism?

Car bomb etc are from the world of religion, they are basically fighting in the name of God (stated clearly in many holy scriptures). They think what they are doing is right, since "God" told them to.
If we or the majority of us decided to live in a world of peace and freedom, we can clearly see that does not work and hence we are able to change it. The problem is, the majority of us doesn't want peace and freedom. (Many of us say we do, but our actions reflects the opposite.)

Also I'm not talking just another religion, I'm talking about spirituality.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Katazia,

Science is man’s only proven method for discovering knowledge.

According to websters ‘science’ means;
1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding.
I believe what you are referring to is “the modern scientific method” which is one way of attaining knowledge i agree, but i disagree that it is the only way.

Technologies are man’s methods for implementing the knowledge provided by science and can range from the soft technologies such as applied psychology and the social sciences, to the harder technologies of better communications such as the internet and to the hard technologies of flying and landing a spacecraft on Mars.

This is all very nice, but what benificial knowledge have we gained from these technologies? Are we still not beating each others brains out, even more frequently and violently than before? We can land a spaceship on Mars, so what? How is this going to answer the questions at the heart of all true enquiry regarding ones self?

Your religious and spiritual ideas provide no knowledge and do not further man’s understanding of the universe or himself, such ideas are simply worthless crap.

Firstly, they are not my religious or spiritual ideas, the fact that you give me credit simply shows you have not thought about religion or spirituality enough to engage in any serious discussion.
It illuminates your actual intention and the spirit of your current nature which is domination through suppression, hower quietly.

Secondly you say spirituality provides no knowledge. I agree it doesn't give tips on how to keep ones hair wonderfully conditioned and shiny or how to keep ones skin smooth. Or what the physical contents of grass is.
But that is not the aim, the aim for one to become self-realised so one does not have to suffer more than necessary and eventually put an end to all suffering. It is about knowing who and what you are, outside of this temporal prison.

Thirdly you say real religion and spirituality are simply worthless crap, but you disregard the testimonies of thousands, if not millions of people, including scientists, philosophists, artists, etc, who take the time out to ponder over the possibility (at least) of there being a Supreme Intelligent Brain behind this wonderful cosmic manifestation, not to mention it is an insult to all the people who post here who are partial to religion/spirituality. I personally would not entertain anything that was worthless crap, there is more to me than that, and I doubt that anybody here would, theist or atheist.

You need to sit back and learn, before spouting insults.

Jan Ardena.

 

[Katazia]

Jan Ardena,

i disagree that it is the only way.

Can you then demonstrate a better way of acquiring knowledge or even another method?

what benificial knowledge have we gained from these technologies?

Everything that has taken us from barbaric cave dwelling to modern civilization.

Are we still not beating each others brains out, even more frequently and violently than before?

I have never done that and no one has ever done that to me, neither do I personally know anyone who has done that. I hope that isn’t your lifestyle either. The overwhelming majority of people in the world do not act as you suggest. Perhaps you simply watch too much TV news that tends to stress the isolated bad events in the world.

We can land a spaceship on Mars, so what? How is this going to answer the questions at the heart of all true enquiry regarding ones self?

Why do you think landing a spacecraft on Mars would in any way answer questions more suited to psychology? Different technologies are used in different ways to answer different questions.

the fact that you give me credit simply shows you have not thought about religion or spirituality enough to engage in any serious discussion.

I didn’t give you credit for originating such ideas, I fully recognize you are simply copying the ideas of others and perpetuating mythologies as if they were true

It illuminates your actual intention and the spirit of your current nature which is domination through suppression, hower quietly.

I do not believe you know anywhere near enough about me to perform any meaningful psycho-analysis.

Secondly you say spirituality provides no knowledge. I agree it doesn't give tips on how to keep ones hair wonderfully conditioned and shiny or how to keep ones skin smooth.

Do you attend classes on vacuous cynicism or is it just natural for you?

…the aim for one to become self-realised so one does not have to suffer more than necessary and eventually put an end to all suffering.

It’s a nice dream.

It is about knowing who and what you are, outside of this temporal prison.

I already know who and what I am and do not feel imprisoned. If you feel imprisoned then perhaps you should see a therapist.

Thirdly you say real religion and spirituality are simply worthless crap,

Not an accurate quote but close enough.

but you disregard the testimonies of thousands, if not millions of people, including scientists, philosophists, artists, etc, who take the time out to ponder over the possibility (at least) of there being a Supreme Intelligent Brain behind this wonderful cosmic manifestation,

Argumentum ad populum – a classic logical fallacy and couched in emotional embroidery.

not to mention it is an insult to all the people who post here who are partial to religion/spirituality.

My comment referred to the ideas not the people. It is not possible to insult an idea.

I personally would not entertain anything that was worthless crap, there is more to me than that, and I doubt that anybody here would, theist or atheist.

Religions are the waste products of an evolving civilization. They have proved useful in the past when real knowledge was sparse but now they need to be discarded as the useless waste that they have become.

I do not believe you can show me any instance where a belief in a religious or spiritual idea is superior to equivalent ideas that have a naturalistic worldview. Neither can you show me any instance where a religious or spiritual tenet has any basis in reality. Unless you can provide something substantial to back up your unnecessary cynical and snide remarks then my assertion that religions and spirituality are worthless will stand.

You need to sit back and learn, before spouting insults.

I learnt a long time ago - I think it is your time now. Do not mistake aggression for ignorance.

Kat

 

[Jan Ardena]

Katazia,

Can you then demonstrate a better way of acquiring knowledge or even another method?

Now hold on just a minute. You claimed that “science” was the only “proven” method for discovering knowledge. I corrected you by showing “science” was the “state of knowing”, “knowledge”, that what you actually meant was the “modern” scientific method was the only proven method. So now that we have that out of the way, I believe I am entitled to a demonstration as to how it is so.

Everything that has taken us from barbaric cave dwelling to modern civilization.

You forgot to to put “…to barbaric modern civilisation, that being the case; what beneficial knowledge have we gained.
Also bear in mind that not all civilisations were barbaric or cave dwellers, and not all cave dwellers were/are barbaric. A gross generalisation and misrepresentation on your part I believe.

Why do you think landing a spacecraft on Mars would in any way answer questions more suited to psychology?

Lighten up, it was a figure of speech.
What kind of technology, relating to pyscology, could give rise to personal knowledge of one-self, that cannot be gained without such technology?

I didn’t give you credit for originating such ideas, I fully recognize you are simply copying the ideas of others and perpetuating mythologies as if they were true

Please be so kind as to show these “myths” that I have perpetuating as if true.

I do not believe you know anywhere near enough about me to perform any meaningful psycho-analysis.

But i can analyse what i do know.

It’s a nice dream.

How many people do you know that dream of not suffering more than necessary or ending suffering all together, when they go to sleep at night?


I already know who and what I am and do not feel imprisoned. If you feel imprisoned then perhaps you should see a therapist.

LOL!!!
I'm sure i heard you mention in another thread, that your neighborhood had strong sercurity. If so, what are you afraid of?

Argumentum ad populum – a classic logical fallacy and couched in emotional embroidery.

You never put forward an argument, you made a statement based entirely on your own opinions. I simply retaliated by pointing out your narrow-mindedness and lack of respect for people (even people you may respect as logical and rational), who have dedicated serious time and effort, regarding the subject matter, irregardless of their final persuasion.
If however, you believe we were actually in argument, then what of your statement?
How logical and rational was that?

My comment referred to the ideas not the people. It is not possible to insult an idea.

Then you must have a poor fund of knowledge of the idea of God and spirituality, why you reduce it to conclusions such as; “…simply worthless crap”. At least have the decency to show why you think the way you do.

I do not believe you can show me any instance where a belief in a religious or spiritual idea is superior to equivalent ideas that have a naturalistic worldview.

That is like saying; I do not believe you can show me any instance where an artistic idea is superior to equivalent ideas that have paper and pencil..

This is not a game, to see who is better, it is an attempt to become a whole, therefore free individual, one who is not under any illusion, to know the truth. You seem to be in it to win it.

Neither can you show me any instance where a religious or spiritual tenet has any basis in reality.

I'm sorry, i have to ask;
What do you regard as reality?

I learnt a long time ago - I think it is your time now. Do not mistake aggression for ignorance.

Thanks for the advice, you’re very kind I’m sure.
But I also have learnt this.

Jan Ardena.

 

[Hevene]

Jan Ardena and Katazia
Just want to make a comment: Knowledge vs. Wisdom
Sure science had provided us with knowledge, however most of them is having a negative impact on our society, eg on the environment.
Spirituality on the other hand, doesn't contain the knowledge that you (katazia) know well, ie. scientific knowledge, but it contains wisdoms for everyday life. Wisdoms are knowledge applied. Gaining a spiritual awareness allows many people to live a wakeful life, be aware of what's going on, allows you to be happy etc. It allows us to live in peace and live with love, this science is not able to achieve with its nuclear weapons and bombs.