The Final Argument

[greenberg]

hence normative descriptions, regardless of what ever field of knowledge one is discussing, can be located by examination of practitioners and books of knowledge related to such practices (the normative descriptions of physics can be discerned by examining physicists and physics text books) – understanding this enables ever opportunity to fulfill the normative requirements

... All this assuming that there exists an objective reality which can be known objectively.

It's this assumption of objective reality that is a problem ...

 

[lightgigantic]

... All this assuming that there exists an objective reality which can be known objectively.

It's this assumption of objective reality that is a problem ...

if one didn't assume there was an objective reality there would be no serious impetus for the pursuit of knowledge in the first place

 

[greenberg]

if one didn't assume there was an objective reality there would be no serious impetus for the pursuit of knowledge in the first place

Yes, this is a very common conclusion, but it is not necessarily true for everyone and for all pursuits.

One could, for example, focus on the question "What is for my long-term welfare and happiness?" and then by trial and error, by trial and success find ways to long-term welfare and happiness.

This would include knowledge - but knowledge of a kind which we traditionally do not focus on so much.

 

[lightgigantic]

Yes, this is a very common conclusion, but it is not necessarily true for everyone and for all pursuits.

One could, for example, focus on the question "What is for my long-term welfare and happiness?" and then by trial and error, by trial and success find ways to long-term welfare and happiness.

This would include knowledge - but knowledge of a kind which we traditionally do not focus on so much.

true - any fool can discern their short term interest but venturing into long term interest requires a bit of wisdom - and part of that wisdom involves knowing how "I" interact with "the world" - IOW it becomes very difficult to understand how wisdom can operate without some notion of objectivity

 

[greenberg]

true - any fool can discern their short term interest but venturing into long term interest requires a bit of wisdom - and part of that wisdom involves knowing how "I" interact with "the world" - IOW it becomes very difficult to understand how wisdom can operate without some notion of objectivity

Of course. But this "objectivity" is about a rather small range of things - only things that one deems connected to one's long-term welfare and happiness.

Personally, I feel a kind of "conceptual claustrophobia" when I think about things I deem connected to my long-term welfare and happiness. Because focusing on my long-term welfare and happiness means ignoring a miriad of other things - things that I used to pay a lot of attention to and used to find some temporary satisfaction in them.
The quest for long-term welfare and happiness can feel extremely alienating in that way, it can feel like being fenced in - and thus, "subjective".

 

[lightgigantic]

Of course. But this "objectivity" is about a rather small range of things - only things that one deems connected to one's long-term welfare and happiness.

Personally, I feel a kind of "conceptual claustrophobia" when I think about things I deem connected to my long-term welfare and happiness. Because focusing on my long-term welfare and happiness means ignoring a miriad of other things - things that I used to pay a lot of attention to and used to find some temporary satisfaction in them.
The quest for long-term welfare and happiness can feel extremely alienating in that way, it can feel like being fenced in - and thus, "subjective".

regardless of how it feels, it is practically seen that a person who doesn't pay attention to their long term self interest has a narrower aperture in terms of their future - for instance a child may not feel any inclination to go to school but the parent forces them since they know (in their greater wisdom) that if their child is not sufficiently educated they will have less opportunities later on in life.