http://groups.msn.com/AtheistVSGod/thegodoflove.msnw
this is how your god of love treats his children.
what do, we do to change it.
this is how your god of love treats his children.
what do, we do to change it.
the ever loving, God of love.
- Thread starter pavlosmarcos
- Start date
anotheressence
Registered Senior Member
Seems like God forgot a few people, eh?
W
what768
Guest
God is love, and sometimes love makes people suffer too, doesn't it?
anotheressence
Registered Senior Member
what768 said:
No. Not like that. Our idea of "love" doesn't make anyone starve to death.
"Oh, I love you but I'm gonna have to take away all your food and medical supplies and let you die and be eaten by vultures, but I still love you!!!"
Come on now.
W
what768
Guest
People have killed themselves because someone has said to them: "I love you, but I can't be with you". They starved to death, spiritually, if you understand what I mean. Life is suffering, it is not good if it becomes too great, but also that happens. God does not see the world like we do. We see everything from a personal viewpoint, but God sees life from the universal point of view. We cannot ask him to change his masterplan for our personal thoughts or needs.
anotheressence
Registered Senior Member
what768 said:
No sorry that crap won't fly here. Basically are you just saying that whatever we think is wrong, it isn't because we can't see like God does. Which is just circular logic.
Person A: We see all these people suffering, and wonder why God would allow this to happen?
Person B: No, we don't see like God does so it must be for the best.
....If you allow yourself to be bought like that, then you are just a sheep. Oh, how convenient, Christians refer to Jesus as a great sherperd. You're gonna need one for all the sheep you have.
no I dont what does spiritualy mean?what768 said:
didnt God create man in His image,
wouldnt that include brain/mind/thinking/seeing in the same way as God does?
also didnt God said man has become like God since he ate from tree of knowledge?
that would mean that yes,man can see everything from the same pov as god!
if G existed that is,which from the way god is defined obviously cant exist.
www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/index.html
so why do you pray?
anotheressence said:....If you allow yourself to be bought like that, then you are just a sheep. Oh, how convenient, Christians refer to Jesus as a great sherperd. You're gonna need one for all the sheep you have.
Remember kids, the only reason sherperds keep sheep is so that they can slaughter them and fleece them of their wool. Now take that on the scale of the "Great Shepherd"..
well said southstar, seeing is believe.
((pavlosmarcos)))....you are asking why 'God of love' allows such horror as you showed in the photos you presented?
you know, when you ask a question you have to understand if the question itSELF is limited. i am claiming it is for these reasons:
you have asked it with a PREMISE OF a transcendent god of love, right?
from threr you create an image of a goid who is apart from you/us--a creator who is looking down etc AT us
now i am now. i am seeing OUR behaviour as THE key to what we do to each other, including awful crulety and horror
so, then i explore 'what actualizes our behaviour'..what makes us do the things we
do which includes seeing what happens in a certain way?
Isn't it beliefs?
THAT, IF you believe yourself belonging to a 'superior' people then you are prepared to let them starve, or horrible things happen to them. THEN when it does you blame a god. But it isn't A god it is US doin it! are you with me? who ELSE is it but us
you are part of a sorry pattern that is shared by many people. all having beliefs in 'god'....all different beliefs
as i have explained alswewhere, i am learning that the ORIGINAL god-experience wasn't of a TRANSCENDENTAL god, as though 'it' wasn't immanent. 'God' was a DIRECT experience, usually felt after eating sacred hallucinogens
Soon, due to various philosophical transitions/prohibition, this direct experience was phased out, and then all that was left was EMPTY symbolism which included a deification of 'god'.
Listen.....NOW there was no direct experience, but beliefs in a transcendent
concept of a male-god! can you not see th significance of this transition for you sense of reality
From therer --as we lose touch with Nature, community, and become in conflict with Nature, others, and even our own bodies, we ask the question 'why does 'god' allow such evil?
but look closely. why do you think there ARE starving people, desolate environments, and all the conflict and violence and misery? Have you got it??
you know, when you ask a question you have to understand if the question itSELF is limited. i am claiming it is for these reasons:
you have asked it with a PREMISE OF a transcendent god of love, right?
from threr you create an image of a goid who is apart from you/us--a creator who is looking down etc AT us
now i am now. i am seeing OUR behaviour as THE key to what we do to each other, including awful crulety and horror
so, then i explore 'what actualizes our behaviour'..what makes us do the things we
do which includes seeing what happens in a certain way?
Isn't it beliefs?
THAT, IF you believe yourself belonging to a 'superior' people then you are prepared to let them starve, or horrible things happen to them. THEN when it does you blame a god. But it isn't A god it is US doin it! are you with me? who ELSE is it but us
you are part of a sorry pattern that is shared by many people. all having beliefs in 'god'....all different beliefs
as i have explained alswewhere, i am learning that the ORIGINAL god-experience wasn't of a TRANSCENDENTAL god, as though 'it' wasn't immanent. 'God' was a DIRECT experience, usually felt after eating sacred hallucinogens
Soon, due to various philosophical transitions/prohibition, this direct experience was phased out, and then all that was left was EMPTY symbolism which included a deification of 'god'.
Listen.....NOW there was no direct experience, but beliefs in a transcendent
concept of a male-god! can you not see th significance of this transition for you sense of reality
From therer --as we lose touch with Nature, community, and become in conflict with Nature, others, and even our own bodies, we ask the question 'why does 'god' allow such evil?
but look closely. why do you think there ARE starving people, desolate environments, and all the conflict and violence and misery? Have you got it??
no deundy, I am trying to understand, why religious people, believe in a god so inherently evil, as I am an atheist.
I am not a part of a sorry pattern, as you put it as I have no belief, in gods/god, devils/demons fairys/elves unicorns/santa etc.
I am not a part of a sorry pattern, as you put it as I have no belief, in gods/god, devils/demons fairys/elves unicorns/santa etc.
welcome buddha:
pavlos point is, if I may be so bold. how can any religious person, believe that a all seeing and all knowing being could allow this too happen.
and then still believe this is a god of love .
pavlos point is, if I may be so bold. how can any religious person, believe that a all seeing and all knowing being could allow this too happen.
and then still believe this is a god of love .
W
what768
Guest
It seems that God has turned his back on us, because we turned our backs on him. God does not work merely by natural laws, but also through humans, which should actually be his most valuable tool to express himself. Those who have the power to help the poor people, will not help them because God's spirit is weak in them. The world is in our hands now, because we have free will.
Some people lose faith because they think God does not help them. But when I suffer and the world seems evil, my faith grows stronger. So that at least I would have power to heal the evil of this world. After a great suffering, many people are healed.
People wonder why God does not send "angels" and perform miracles to help all people. But God will not fight against us. If he would help us more than he already does, he would have taken away our free will, which he promised us. If he would help us in every situation, then where would our free will be? God takes care of the animals and plants, but he will not take care of us, not until we give him a place in us. Truly, the world is in our hands now.
God's power has always been visible through man. Moses had great faith, and that is why God helped the people, through Moses. God has made man in his own image, but now man has taken images from the world outside, and an evil power has awakened in him. Truly I tell you, man has the power to be as God, but man loves the world more than God, and now he cannot be like God.
Some people lose faith because they think God does not help them. But when I suffer and the world seems evil, my faith grows stronger. So that at least I would have power to heal the evil of this world. After a great suffering, many people are healed.
People wonder why God does not send "angels" and perform miracles to help all people. But God will not fight against us. If he would help us more than he already does, he would have taken away our free will, which he promised us. If he would help us in every situation, then where would our free will be? God takes care of the animals and plants, but he will not take care of us, not until we give him a place in us. Truly, the world is in our hands now.
God's power has always been visible through man. Moses had great faith, and that is why God helped the people, through Moses. God has made man in his own image, but now man has taken images from the world outside, and an evil power has awakened in him. Truly I tell you, man has the power to be as God, but man loves the world more than God, and now he cannot be like God.
what768: It seems that God has turned his back on us, because we turned our backs on him.
*************
M*W: We have become more intelligent and more aware of what God is. It is not that humanity has turned its back on an ancient concept, we are now able to redefine 'God' and look forward to a more advanced existence.
*************
what768: God does not work merely by natural laws, but also through humans, which should actually be his most valuable tool to express himself.
*************
M*W: The closest thing to a real 'God' is humanity; however, humanity expresses the creator model through cumulative understanding. This, in itself, may have been because in our human infancy, we became cognizant of powers in the universe that we could not control: fires, floods, earthquakes, thunderstorms, etc. To the infant human race, these represented gods. Humanity has matured. We're now into our teenage years, acne and all, and we've come to understand what we thought God was when humanity was still in diapers, no longer defines the true concept of God. So, our concept of God had to mature along with humanity. If there is a higher power, a creator of all things, it is humanity itself. We now realize that our immature concept of God as an old man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud is just a fairy tale. When that fairy tale became outdated, we created another one of a god sent to earth to suffer and die for humanity. That fairy tale is proving false. Humanity is finally growing up. We don't believe in fairy tales anymore.
*************
what768: Those who have the power to help the poor people, will not help them because God's spirit is weak in them. The world is in our hands now, because we have free will.
*************
M*W: We've always had 'free will.' A plant doesn't have free will. Lower animals don't have 'free will' but have a survival instinct. Human being have always had 'free will.' If there is a God, then God lives in humanity. We have the 'free will' to help the poor, we have the free will to conquer new worlds, we have the intelligence to even displace the ancient concept of God! And, it's happening everyday. Humanity is becoming more mature, and our needs for a higher power someone out there isn't necessary anymore. We've moved beyond the fairy tales.
*************
what768: Some people lose faith because they think God does not help them. But when I suffer and the world seems evil, my faith grows stronger. So that at least I would have power to heal the evil of this world. After a great suffering, many people are healed.
*************
M*W: Losing faith has nothing to do with it. Losing faith in some fairy tale being is called maturity. We all suffer, and the world seems evil, but humanity relies on its own strength and less on some imaginary creator. The power we need to heal the evil of this world is not just within our grasp, it is within us. Only we (humanity) have the ability to heal the suffering in the world. Unfortunately, we're all too busy fighting amongst ourselves about whose God is the bigger, better God! I say one need only to look at humanity in the mirror to see the image of God. God is in here -- not out there!
*************
what768: People wonder why God does not send "angels" and perform miracles to help all people. But God will not fight against us. If he would help us more than he already does, he would have taken away our free will, which he promised us. If he would help us in every situation, then where would our free will be? God takes care of the animals and plants, but he will not take care of us, not until we give him a place in us. Truly, the world is in our hands now.
*************
M*W: What could angels do that humanity couldn't do? If angels exist, they are only messengers. Angels are not greater than humanity. Humanity has total free will over angels (if they exist). I'd like to hear more about what these people you mention who are waiting for angels to perform miracles! If humanity can't do it, angels are just pretty ornaments stuck on Christmas trees.
*************
what768: God's power has always been visible through man.
*************
M*W: My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't just limit it to 'man', if there is a God, God's power is visible through humanity!
*************
what 768: Moses had great faith, and that is why God helped the people, through Moses.
*************
M*W: Explain in detail why God helped the people through Moses. Did you know that the whole Exodus story may not be true? Did you know that the 'Ark of the Covenant' was nothing more than a set of ancient jumper cables in a fancy-schmancy box they thought contained God? Did you ever wonder why Moses' people 'wandered' in the desert for some 40 years? (40 meaning eternity). They were nomads! Did you know that Moses is now considered to be an Egyptian Pharaoh? Did you know the Hebrews were an Egyptian nomadic tribe called the Hibiru? What has faith got to do with it?
*************
waht 768: God has made man in his own image, but now man has taken images from the world outside, and an evil power has awakened in him. Truly I tell you, man has the power to be as God, but man loves the world more than God, and now he cannot be like God.
*************
M*W: Man has made God in his own image. Humanity is God. What makes you think the 'images from the world outside' have awakened evil powers in humanity? No! Nothing is created unless humanity creates it. Until we can prove, or at least until humanity can mature enough to see and understand that there is greater life beyond us, humanity will still reign as the highest power. Be nice to the person sitting next to you. He is God.
*************
M*W: We have become more intelligent and more aware of what God is. It is not that humanity has turned its back on an ancient concept, we are now able to redefine 'God' and look forward to a more advanced existence.
*************
what768: God does not work merely by natural laws, but also through humans, which should actually be his most valuable tool to express himself.
*************
M*W: The closest thing to a real 'God' is humanity; however, humanity expresses the creator model through cumulative understanding. This, in itself, may have been because in our human infancy, we became cognizant of powers in the universe that we could not control: fires, floods, earthquakes, thunderstorms, etc. To the infant human race, these represented gods. Humanity has matured. We're now into our teenage years, acne and all, and we've come to understand what we thought God was when humanity was still in diapers, no longer defines the true concept of God. So, our concept of God had to mature along with humanity. If there is a higher power, a creator of all things, it is humanity itself. We now realize that our immature concept of God as an old man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud is just a fairy tale. When that fairy tale became outdated, we created another one of a god sent to earth to suffer and die for humanity. That fairy tale is proving false. Humanity is finally growing up. We don't believe in fairy tales anymore.
*************
what768: Those who have the power to help the poor people, will not help them because God's spirit is weak in them. The world is in our hands now, because we have free will.
*************
M*W: We've always had 'free will.' A plant doesn't have free will. Lower animals don't have 'free will' but have a survival instinct. Human being have always had 'free will.' If there is a God, then God lives in humanity. We have the 'free will' to help the poor, we have the free will to conquer new worlds, we have the intelligence to even displace the ancient concept of God! And, it's happening everyday. Humanity is becoming more mature, and our needs for a higher power someone out there isn't necessary anymore. We've moved beyond the fairy tales.
*************
what768: Some people lose faith because they think God does not help them. But when I suffer and the world seems evil, my faith grows stronger. So that at least I would have power to heal the evil of this world. After a great suffering, many people are healed.
*************
M*W: Losing faith has nothing to do with it. Losing faith in some fairy tale being is called maturity. We all suffer, and the world seems evil, but humanity relies on its own strength and less on some imaginary creator. The power we need to heal the evil of this world is not just within our grasp, it is within us. Only we (humanity) have the ability to heal the suffering in the world. Unfortunately, we're all too busy fighting amongst ourselves about whose God is the bigger, better God! I say one need only to look at humanity in the mirror to see the image of God. God is in here -- not out there!
*************
what768: People wonder why God does not send "angels" and perform miracles to help all people. But God will not fight against us. If he would help us more than he already does, he would have taken away our free will, which he promised us. If he would help us in every situation, then where would our free will be? God takes care of the animals and plants, but he will not take care of us, not until we give him a place in us. Truly, the world is in our hands now.
*************
M*W: What could angels do that humanity couldn't do? If angels exist, they are only messengers. Angels are not greater than humanity. Humanity has total free will over angels (if they exist). I'd like to hear more about what these people you mention who are waiting for angels to perform miracles! If humanity can't do it, angels are just pretty ornaments stuck on Christmas trees.
*************
what768: God's power has always been visible through man.
*************
M*W: My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't just limit it to 'man', if there is a God, God's power is visible through humanity!
*************
what 768: Moses had great faith, and that is why God helped the people, through Moses.
*************
M*W: Explain in detail why God helped the people through Moses. Did you know that the whole Exodus story may not be true? Did you know that the 'Ark of the Covenant' was nothing more than a set of ancient jumper cables in a fancy-schmancy box they thought contained God? Did you ever wonder why Moses' people 'wandered' in the desert for some 40 years? (40 meaning eternity). They were nomads! Did you know that Moses is now considered to be an Egyptian Pharaoh? Did you know the Hebrews were an Egyptian nomadic tribe called the Hibiru? What has faith got to do with it?
*************
waht 768: God has made man in his own image, but now man has taken images from the world outside, and an evil power has awakened in him. Truly I tell you, man has the power to be as God, but man loves the world more than God, and now he cannot be like God.
*************
M*W: Man has made God in his own image. Humanity is God. What makes you think the 'images from the world outside' have awakened evil powers in humanity? No! Nothing is created unless humanity creates it. Until we can prove, or at least until humanity can mature enough to see and understand that there is greater life beyond us, humanity will still reign as the highest power. Be nice to the person sitting next to you. He is God.
If all tv-evangelist took the billions of dollars collected yearly they could litterally feed the whole world, instead these SOB's keep the money in their greedy pockets. God has nothing to do with the starving children, it's the purpose of humanity to help them, however humanity seeks for profit, unfortunately humanity does not see the profit of helping the starving nations. If only there were billions of barrels of oil in those nations the whole world would be there trying to help these nations.
G.
G.
W
what768
Guest
Medicine woman
You propably misunderstood a little of what I said but I'll give some opinions. =)
No one knows how the laws of nature Really work. Try, for example, explain why magnets attract to each other? Fires, floods and earthquakes does not seem like anything strange today, because everyone knows "What" they are. But if we look deeper into them, we'll see that we don't really understand them. No one can explain how we can move our bodies. People answer, "the brain sends electronical impulses to... etc." But that is not a REAL explanation. People have given names to things, so they think they "know" them... and they call them natural laws.
What is this "humanity" you are talking about? You say that "if there is a creator of all things, it is humanity itself". Are you saying that we could have created ourselves, the laws of nature and everything around us? What is it that created the world, in your eyes?
Heehee! God is not "an old man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud". No religion says That!
You're saying that religions are fairytales... But children like fairytales, and they understand them. I don't think adults are any wiser, or Better. Jesus said: "Love others as yourself". It is true, and there is nothing false in this. People spend much time trying to find out if religions are historically "correct", but it is the message which is important. Maybe there are some stupid things in religions, but there are more good things in them. The trick is to recognise the good things. It's easy, as you have propably seen yourself!
I know that "God" is inside of man, like in all things.
(quote)M*W: My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't just limit it to 'man', if there is a God, God's power is visible through humanity!(/quote)
But "man" and humanity is the same thing, they are just different words, aren't they! =)
Moses had a staff by which he could control natural forces. It was made of some kind of metal, I think it was gold, but a special kind of gold. A kind of living gold... you know that eggs can become chickens if they are in the right temperature, so I think it the gold in Moses' staff was made a similar way. Moses could use the staff only because he knew himself, and hence he knew God. So he did something and the staff helped him and the red sea or whatever was cut in two! It's not a "miracle", it's just something that which people don't understand.
"Ancient jumper cables"? What's that? Was there any gold in them?
You're saying a lot of things, but how can you be so sure that it is True? In my opinion it is not important how True something is, just if it is true for oneself....
About the Ark of the Covenant... I could explain it more... everything is "motion" in the material world. There are different wavelengths... man can just see a few of them. Electricity, heat, light... Solid "matter" is also but "motion". Even thoughts are made of the same things as these... the most high power which "penetrates" everything else is Life itself. Humans originate from these radiations... they have created us... and the origin of these things....we call god. People lose consciousness because they can't stand some of these things... but... Only moses could touch the ark of the covenant, because he understood the most high power. Others would have died.
I'm sorry... its hard to explain...
God is within, "satan" is outside, in the world. "Matter" is not evil itself, but it becomes evil in man, because man is spiritual. Matter becomes alive, and satan is this living matter. Satan is but the material law without man. Only through man he can become alive, when man starts to obey the law of matter. If you like to, read more detailed about what I wrote here >>> http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40891&page=2
You have pretty nice ideas... I was more 'atheistic' like you before but now I want to believe in God instead.
You propably misunderstood a little of what I said but I'll give some opinions. =)
No one knows how the laws of nature Really work. Try, for example, explain why magnets attract to each other? Fires, floods and earthquakes does not seem like anything strange today, because everyone knows "What" they are. But if we look deeper into them, we'll see that we don't really understand them. No one can explain how we can move our bodies. People answer, "the brain sends electronical impulses to... etc." But that is not a REAL explanation. People have given names to things, so they think they "know" them... and they call them natural laws.
What is this "humanity" you are talking about? You say that "if there is a creator of all things, it is humanity itself". Are you saying that we could have created ourselves, the laws of nature and everything around us? What is it that created the world, in your eyes?
Heehee! God is not "an old man with a long white beard sitting on a cloud". No religion says That!
You're saying that religions are fairytales... But children like fairytales, and they understand them. I don't think adults are any wiser, or Better. Jesus said: "Love others as yourself". It is true, and there is nothing false in this. People spend much time trying to find out if religions are historically "correct", but it is the message which is important. Maybe there are some stupid things in religions, but there are more good things in them. The trick is to recognise the good things. It's easy, as you have propably seen yourself!
I know that "God" is inside of man, like in all things.
(quote)M*W: My thoughts exactly. I wouldn't just limit it to 'man', if there is a God, God's power is visible through humanity!(/quote)
But "man" and humanity is the same thing, they are just different words, aren't they! =)
Moses had a staff by which he could control natural forces. It was made of some kind of metal, I think it was gold, but a special kind of gold. A kind of living gold... you know that eggs can become chickens if they are in the right temperature, so I think it the gold in Moses' staff was made a similar way. Moses could use the staff only because he knew himself, and hence he knew God. So he did something and the staff helped him and the red sea or whatever was cut in two! It's not a "miracle", it's just something that which people don't understand.
"Ancient jumper cables"? What's that? Was there any gold in them?
You're saying a lot of things, but how can you be so sure that it is True? In my opinion it is not important how True something is, just if it is true for oneself....
About the Ark of the Covenant... I could explain it more... everything is "motion" in the material world. There are different wavelengths... man can just see a few of them. Electricity, heat, light... Solid "matter" is also but "motion". Even thoughts are made of the same things as these... the most high power which "penetrates" everything else is Life itself. Humans originate from these radiations... they have created us... and the origin of these things....we call god. People lose consciousness because they can't stand some of these things... but... Only moses could touch the ark of the covenant, because he understood the most high power. Others would have died.
I'm sorry... its hard to explain...
God is within, "satan" is outside, in the world. "Matter" is not evil itself, but it becomes evil in man, because man is spiritual. Matter becomes alive, and satan is this living matter. Satan is but the material law without man. Only through man he can become alive, when man starts to obey the law of matter. If you like to, read more detailed about what I wrote here >>> http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40891&page=2
You have pretty nice ideas... I was more 'atheistic' like you before but now I want to believe in God instead.
This is an excellent example of why propaganda works so well. People will swallow anything with a veneer of syrup. Everybody pay attention! (PS. It's for that same reason that we find Gary Larson "funny": the punchline at the bottom).pavlosmarcos said:
How are these people going to have a "more advanced existence"?
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