The Eternal Universe.

[Xelasnave.1947]

The reason I'm interested is to learn more about it without necessarily accepting it.

Unfortunately when you learn about the eternal universe you can never return to accepting myth and magic which is the only alternative offerred to the eternal universe.

There is no such thing as nothing...it is a casual term used by humans to classify something they have not fully examined.

...examination always reveals something.

Examination of the pre Big Bang can only show there was something...what is the alternative...that something could come from nothing... hardley as that requires magic and is never going to happen in reality.

I presume you have done a bit research since you thought of it?

No I have not.

If I was substantially wrong someone would come forward and point out the correct position.

So for that reason I did not bother to check if my off the top of my head recollection was correct.

I understand the scientific models and the religious models.

Everything in the universe had a beginning and everything in it will have an end, what makes the actual universe any different.

The correct observation must be that although things are born and die they neither come from nothing nor return to nothing.

What starts as nothing and by a process of adding more nothing becomes something.


Do you really think the universe was born out of nothing ..why would it be different to the things we observe daily that are born from something and when they die become something...if you think something can be born from nothing please present a machinery to accomplish such a speculation.

The big bang has more evidence then anything else, but it is far from conclusive.

It is our best model and it has not been able to take us to a point that identifies nothing...it tells us that there was something.

If one is going to suggest that the hot dense something came from nothing then they need to show exactly how something could come from nothing.

I suggest that you can not prove the impossible.

The science has never suggested nothing before the big bang although many who seek a creation point say that before the big bang there was nothing...well they speculate driven by deep seated religious beliefs...the science tells us that there was something.

If the science says other wise please point out the paper that explains how something can come from nothing.

The math has never pointed to a moment, nor can it, that says "this is where something appeared from nothing".


Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

As an example take the flood and ark

Of late I am starting to find evidence that there was a flood ... there are folk who think a cosmic impact approx 11 thousand years ago caused a mega ice melt that saw sea levels rise fast ( 30 feet in 24 hours on one estimate).

So there may be an actual event that gave rise to the many flood stories.

Thirty feet today would not cover all the mountains but those who survive would say that it did☺
Alex

 

[davewhite04]

And everything we observe tells us that although things are born and die they all come from something as opposed to nothing when they are born and all become something rather than nothing when they die.

Exactly, good sentence.

 

[davewhite04]

Unfortunately when you learn about the eternal universe you can never return to accepting myth and magic which is the only alternative offerred to the eternal universe.

There is no such thing as nothing...it is a casual term used by humans to classify something they have not fully examined.

...examination always reveals something.

Examination of the pre Big Bang can only show there was something...what is the alternative...that something could come from nothing... hardley as that requires magic and is never going to happen in reality.

I agree. I think in the same way, logical not based on something that has never been observed. Nothing comes from nothing.

It is our best model and it has not been able to take us to a point that identifies nothing...it tells us that there was something.

If one is going to suggest that the hot dense something came from nothing then they need to show exactly how something could come from nothing.

I suggest that you can not prove the impossible.

The science has never suggested nothing before the big bang although many who seek a creation point say that before the big bang there was nothing...well they speculate driven by deep seated religious beliefs...the science tells us that there was something.

If the science says other wise please point out the paper that explains how something can come from nothing.

The math has never pointed to a moment, nor can it, that says "this is where something appeared from nothing".


Alex

No paper on that. The closest thing science has got to something appearing from nothing is the discovery of virtual particles, never observed and technically they came from something on the subatomic level. Many ancient philosophers came to the same conclusion as you.

No one knows, but you present the best thought out explanation. I'll go through the many ancient civilisations to show what their thoughts were.

 

[Michael 345]

So there may be an actual event that gave rise to the many flood stories.

Bit of a stretch to suggest such a event story would survive
Having said that I could accept if if if the event traveled down such a time frame the Chinese whispers effect may well exaggerated the event

 

[davewhite04]

The eternal or created universe? The ancient texts.

None of the ancient texts from China to Egypt to Iraq try to explain the origins of the universe, they all believe in many gods. The Greeks came closest by mentioning originally there was only chaos, nothing else, but gods that could manipulate the chaos to allow for life in the universe, or maybe just earth, as that was the place they were most interested in.

Monotheism is a different story. They all believe the universe was created by God. Why is this? Maybe the God of Issac, Jacob and Abraham had a superiority complex.

I was going to break everything down but I've a habit of over explaining things so this summary will do.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Having said that I could accept if if if the event traveled down such a time frame the Chinese whispers effect may well exaggerated the event

Think what an overnight sea level rise of 30 feet would do to our world.

I speculate reasonably that it would send us back to a bronze age in effect...most centers of production and transport would be gone and a huge portion of accumulated knowledge.

We probably would lose all our technology. ..those who are left would tell the story and as the centuries pass, as superstitious humans do, reasons for the event would focus on god not a cosmic event...myths would grow.

I am not suggesting the biblical account is realistic but like many myths thete is often some element of truth that the myth grew from.

There is a thread elsewhere re the Yonger Dryas event that probably will cover a possible flood way back.

I will try and identify that thread for you.

Alex

 

[davewhite04]

Belief and faith trumps logic and evidence every time

When they are all combined you will become like the Buddha, enlightened!

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Michael.

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/bolide-impact-and-younger-dryas-and-wildfires.161470/

Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Why is this?

The answer can be found by asking why did this god create the universe.

..When answered by those who invented the story you get...god created the universe for us...the whole lot just for us.

We know the universe is real big...we acknowledge the observable universe may be some 100 billion light years across...but because we observe it is flat (no overall gravitational influence suggesting we are near an edge and this flatness also suggests an infinite universe which suggests an eternal universe☺) we know it is much bigger than our 100 billion light years across observable universe... yet all of it created for humans ... well maybe that is the wsy of it if we look the same as this eternal creator☺. .. but who can buy this idea that it is all for us...oh and where did the idea come from...yes from an some ancient folk who did not know where the Sun went at night and believed sickness was just their invented god being nasty.


The whole reason for creation is to make us special....in this vast eternal universe it is the creators of god who are special on their account..why some of these religious folk think the Earth is stationary and the whole universe revolves around this special stationary Earth.


I know I know crazy as you can get but you see folk like to feel special and so invent stories to make them feel special rather than accepting the reality that they are not even a speck of dust relative to the enormity of space and time...they must reduce space and time to make them feel special and what better way than to make up the notion that the universe is finite...smaller already☺

...and that out of all life they have been made in the image of an eternal creator ... How wonderful that this creator who exists in eternity has human form ...how transparently naive foolish and totally up themselves☺

Alex

 

[davewhite04]

...and that out of all life they have been made in the image of an eternal creator ... How wonderful that this creator who exists in eternity has human form ...how transparently naive foolish and totally up themselves☺

Alex

Who is naive, foolish and "totally up themselves"?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Who is naive, foolish and "totally up themselves"?

Them☺.

Humans in general but specifically those who do not accept the concept of the eternal universe.

Anyone who thinks differently.

Is that specific enough or do you want a list of names☺
Alex

 

[davewhite04]

It seems to me that your version of "God did it" is "the universe is eternal". Now I can't prove either of them wrong, but I lean on science to as far as I go with this, and mainstream science believes that the universe is expanding, which means it had a start. I don't know how it started, singularity? God? you don't know, it is delusional to say you do.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

It seems to me that your version of "God did it" is "the universe is eternal".

No no no.
There is no god in my universe so dont try and sneak one in...you are welcome to visit but please leave your imaginary friends at home.

Now I can't prove either of them wrong

Well you can get close to proving god does not exist.

In courts of law the level of proof for criminal matters is "beyond a reasonable doubt" and for civil matters " what a reasonable man would conclude"...now if you applied either of those proofs you would succeed easily in proving there is no god.

If you applied the same proofs to the eternal universe clearly it would be proved.

Science tends to show religious notions are incorrect...evolution, the sequence of the evolution of the universe even a description of the end of the Earth in relevations has stars falling on the ground...clearly that is so wrong it does not need further explanation.

And we can make a list of the things science shows religion is just wrong...oh can we make a list.

mainstream science believes that the universe is expanding, which means it had a start.

Sure its expanding but that does not point to a start just because thats what you want to believe.

We can observe a lump of bread dough expand and conclude the bread had a start but that observation does not entitlement us to ignore the fact that the dough was made from something...this is the part folk seem to miss...you cant make something out of nothing...science tells us the universe is expanding but that does not imply a start unless you extrapolate to a pre determined condition...

The initial Big Bang drew upon observations of expansion to conclude that the universe started at a point but much later had to in effect disregard that observation to instal an intial inflation period which in effect rendered the prior observed expansion meaningless. ..it ended up being something irrelevant to the later adjustent of the theory.

The initial observation and conclusion was in effect very flawed.
And it was then that the idea that as it was expanding must point to a start was first presented.
But if that expansion was reverse engineered the extrapolation could not remotely get you back to a start...it was only when the theory of inflation was concocted that became possible...and frankly that theory is a stretch. ..it asks us to accept that the initial evolution saw the universe grow from the size of a grape fruit to at least the size of the observable universe in a zillionth of a zillionth of a zillionth of a second...that needs fixing in my view...but even so it ztill works from there being something... . At what point can we detect a start? Well we cant...even speculation of what came before the big bang works with something...a quantum foam is often run out. ..but something.

I don't know how it started,

You assume it started ...you dont know that it did start.

singularity

This is an expression that merely recognises that the equations can not tell us anything at that point...the equation has passed the point where it can describe reality....you may as well say...here be dragons and beasts at the edge of the world.

God?

As I have said in another thread.

Why reach for the notion of a god when such has no basis other than myth...

You dont entertain fire breathing draggons or aliens who eat humans so why leave the most unbelievable myth of all on the table...god is made up and a lie...you have heard that if you tell a lie often enough some fool will believe it...well the god lie is about the best example of such.

Ask what was the first alledged contact with this God...mmm...one mans word it seems...next...next...next...

you can look and look but nothing other than the say so of just a few people..and heresay...there is a good reason heresay is not considered reasonae evidence in court...it is useless. ...and this is the foundation?... heck you have more reports of aliens yet they are dismissed...I dont believe in visiting aliens but at least there is a huge pile of evidence to sort thru...so as I said why leave a less than credible myth on the table....to do so just means the lie is starting to find a home in your head.

you don't know

I can say that, without, like you, keeping the door open to the myth I want to believe.

I dont know for sure the universe is eternal but it seems the most reasonable idea given we can accept something just does not come from nothing...that is what all our experience and observation tells us...there is no evidence of something coming from nothing...in fact there is no evidence for nothing...so how can the universe be anything other than eternal.

delusional to say you do.

Yes it would be but I say that finally I dont really know. .. but I have a most reasonable basis to draw the conclusion that the universe is eternal.

..delussion would be to ignore the science of evolution in favour of bronze age notions as to creation. ..delusion would be believing that a creator is needed to create a universe just for humans...delusion would be thinking humans were created to look like a mythical creator...I could go on but thinking the universe is eternal and that something cant come from nothing is hardley delusional.

Alex

 

[davewhite04]

No no no.
There is no god in my universe so dont try and sneak one in...you are welcome to visit but please leave your imaginary friends at home.

haha "sneaking god in.." that's not what I meant man.

What seems strange to me is why someone like you debate in a religion forum? Instead of just saying "these fairies, gods etc. are all made up the universe is eternal" why not at least play the devils advocate.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

What seems strange to me is why someone like you debate in a religion forum?

Who is this someone like me?

Where are they debating?

Instead of just saying "these fairies, gods etc. are all made up the universe is eternal" why not at least play the devils advocate.

Ask them...mmm like me...that is indeed strange.

As to what I may or may not do or indeed my motivations must be clear to everyone...I am between doing real stuff in the real world...no astronomy and I have completed all my processing☺...at the moment I have time on my hands...I had some surgery which all went well however the stiches on the wound on my leg did not hold and so I had to apply some clever bandaging to hold things together and stay in bed so as to avoid gettimg new stiches...so bordem and crankyness come to the surface and I tend to become critical of anyone who does not believe in evolution and a creatorless eternal universe.

I have to be direct else most folk would have no idea what I am on about...I make my posts long and devoid of interesting stuff so people dont read them...they are just me venting and as that is their only purpose need not make sense even to me.


Happily I am near recovered and later today I hope to remove my bandage and find that the wound has healed...I just did not want to get a second set of stiches...the first were most painful...on my shin so with little flesh and skin you really felt the pull.

I had surgery on my ear as well...a decent pie slice was removed such that my ear is now cup like...looks terrible but may help hearing distant sounds.

You have a good day and hold your beliefs as the fact is so long as you dont hurt anyone you can think what you like.

Alex

 

[davewhite04]

Who is this someone like me?

Where are they debating?



Ask them...mmm like me...that is indeed strange.

As to what I may or may not do or indeed my motivations must be clear to everyone...I am between doing real stuff in the teal world...no astronomy and I have completed all my processing☺...at the moment I have time on my hands...I had some surgery which all went well however the stiches on the wound on my leg did not hold and so I had to apply some clever bandaging to hold things together and stay in bed so as to avoid gettimg mew stiches...so bordem and crankyness come to the surface and I tend to become critical of anyone who does not believe in evolution and a creatorless eternal universe.

I have to be direct else most folk would have no idea what I am on about...I make my posts long and devoid of interesting stuff so people dont read them...they are just me venting and as that is their only purpose need not make sense even to me.


Happily I am near recovered and later today I hope to remove my bandage and find that the wound has healed...I just did not want to get a second set of stiches...the first were most painful...on my shin so with little flesh and skin you really felt the pull.

I had surgery on my ear as well...a decent pie slice was removed such that my ear is now cup like...looks terrible but may help hearing distant sounds.

You have a good day and hold your beliefs as the fact is so long as you dont hurt anyone you can think what you like.

Alex

Thanks for sharing. You'll be okay before long.

 

[Michael 345]

Michael you are being very silly - and a possibly a tad trollish - here.

Only biblical fundamentalists take the story of Noah's Flood as literal. All the doctors of the church are well aware the myth is as old as the hills and is found in the Epic of Gilgamesh. More generally, religious believers are certainly capable of changing their views and in fact do so a great deal, probably more than scientists do, given the numerous interpretations of religious belief that are available.

Don't demean yourself by taking cheap shots at Aunt Sally caricatures of religion.

Only biblical fundamentalists take the story of Noah's Flood as literal.

True enough, but also disruptive enough to discredit science within a uncritical population

More generally, religious believers are certainly capable of changing their views and in fact do so a great deal, probably more than scientists do, given the numerous interpretations of religious belief that are available.

Doubtful

Glad you used interpretations and belief, especially belief

Scientists have numerous interpretations of data and for them belief would not even be in the picture, except for a casual conversation version, not a deeply held conviction

Don't demean yourself by taking cheap shots at Aunt Sally caricatures of religion.

Religion (mainstream) should stop being Aunt Sally

When the boss, of a large number of religious people, in a speech, ask them to "live a simple life" while living in a palace and also "don't hoard possessions" while sitting on uncountable cultural treasures which very few people will be able to view

As I am sure he also believes in Sky Daddy

Makes him the Grand Daddy of Aunt Sally's in my book

 

[exchemist]

Only biblical fundamentalists take the story of Noah's Flood as literal.

True enough, but also disruptive enough to discredit science within a uncritical population

More generally, religious believers are certainly capable of changing their views and in fact do so a great deal, probably more than scientists do, given the numerous interpretations of religious belief that are available.

Doubtful

Glad you used interpretations and belief, especially belief

Scientists have numerous interpretations of data and for them belief would not even be in the picture, except for a casual conversation version, not a deeply held conviction

Don't demean yourself by taking cheap shots at Aunt Sally caricatures of religion.

Religion (mainstream) should stop being Aunt Sally

When the boss, of a large number of religious people, in a speech, ask them to "live a simple life" while living in a palace and also "don't hoard possessions" while sitting on uncountable cultural treasures which very few people will be able to view

As I am sure he also believes in Sky Daddy

Makes him the Grand Daddy of Aunt Sally's in my book

That's right, if you can't address the criticism, introduce a new subject! It's called" whataboutery" and is a very well-known (and tedious) rhetorical trick.

Criticising all religion on the basis of what only fundamentalists maintain is what you were doing. That is the Aunt Sally at issue in my post.

What you may see as hypocrisy on the part of the Pope is quite beside the point.

 

[Michael 345]

What you may see as hypocrisy on the part of the Pope is quite beside the point.

As stated the pope is the Grand Daddy Aunt Sally

That's right, if you can't address the criticism, introduce a new subject! It's called" whataboutery" and is a very well-known (and tedious) rhetorical trick.

If you want me to be tedious I could go through the names of all the major religious players

Criticising all religion on the basis of what only fundamentalists maintain is what you were doing.

From my perspective believing in Sky Daddy is a fundamentalist position, so yes they are all painted with the same tar brush