Baron, let's look first at your behavior in the thread.
Norsefire posts that he believes the ends always justify the means. I point out things that people who believe this tend not to think of. You opt to demand evidence from me, but not from him.
Do you think Norsefire needs to produce evidence for his belief? If so, why didn't you ask him?
I'm not sure where or how you've arrived at that conclusion, but unless you can produce some evidence to back it up, I'm going to have to refuse to believe it. One can make all kinds of "maybe" and "might" statements, but saying them does not make them true.
To me it is intuitively obvious that if you begin killing and stealing it changes you. I have read accounts of police, criminals, soldiers, etc. who all talk about this. But if you think differently, please at least state you do. If you really think that killing and stealing do not change most people, people who are trying to change the world for the better, please let me know.
And ....what's your point? Everything and anything, all of life affects people all the time, but that doesn't mean you don't do things in life.
The next sentence, which apparantly you read, deals with that.
Why do you say that those people are all scared, etc? Why not happy and joyful that they finally made it to the promised land?
You seem to NOT understand that I am responding to someone who is making the assumption that the means will not affect the ends. That they are merely means. I do not think this is case and I am presenting counterexamples. The USAs last couple of noble wars should show how means do not always create a fawning, happy population.
Again, Doreen, just saying something doesn't make it necessarily true. The settlers in the western USA went through horrendous trials during the wagon train trips to California, etc. Many people were killed in accidents or of illness, yet when the survivors arrived in California, they weren't scared or vengeful.
1) please back this up with evidence 2) the analogy is a poor one. Norsefire wants to start a totalitarian regime of the elite of which he considers himself a member. The people you are talking about chose the means and the ends. They did not have them chosen for them. And I'll await your evidence that those who lost family members did not blame themselves or the Natives or Bandits who killed them.
I suppose we could say similar things, for example, about the American Revolutionary War. It was a terrible time, lots of killing, lots of misery, lots of death. Yet, when it was all over, I'm sure that the people weren't scared or vengeful or distrusting, etc.
Really. You think the colonists who supported the British were not those things? Also the American armies, at least officially, stayed within the bounds of martial morals of the times. The means they used fit the morals of armed struggles of the time - especially in relation to other colonists.
So how and where did you get your ideas about what people might feel like?
Same place you got yours.
See Baron, I was not saying what must be the case in all cases where one uses short term immoral techniques to get to some good end. I was pointing out what most people who imagine revolutions in their little brains do not take into account. But Norsefire is a special case. You bring up the American Revolution, but this is a terrible, terrible example in the context of Norsefire's question. I realize you may be unaware of why, but then you are so snide I don't really care. You see whatever side colonists were on, the general idea of the Revolution was to lead to a greater distribution of authority to the colonists. They would be free of England AND they would be participating in a democracy. There was inherent respect for individuals here. Norsefire thinks the masses should not be involved in the control of their own lives. His ends are not their ends. So his means will not be leading them towards greater control of their lives, but to less control. I believe he lives in the US. he wants a totalitarian state. And now he is talking about the means justifying the ends.
Do you really think that my pointing out some of the potential problems has been out of balance to someone like Norsefire?
Should I have said: Oh, I think they will welcome you with cheers and give you their daughters to sleep with.