The Dome of the Rock

[WildBlueYonder]

Re: Re: Re: References, please!

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman

(Well, sorry, I cannot conveniently hand you the National Geographic article, you'll have to find it yourself. There are many other references that Abraham was a Muslim.

All really muslim sources, right?

(You're wrong, again! There were no Xians after Jesus' time until Saul/Paul coined the term long, long after Jesus was out of the city.)

I notice you like to cross-out the word 'Christians', what’s the matter? Afraid that you will convert if you write Christian too much? Can I call you a Modan? BTW, I guess I have to take Muslims’ word for it on what Christians really believe, since they seem to be the experts, who would have known? I guess that makes me an expert on islam, since I’m not a member?

"Was Muhammad himself the first Muslim? No. Abraham was the first Muslim, reasoned Muhammad, because the father of the Jewish people had submitted so perfectly to God."

Human reason can be faulty, since Mohammad didn’t know Judaism or Christianity enough to reason about it, look at the mistakes and Gnostic references included in the Quran.

"In fact, Muhammad argued that Abraham had not been Jewish because he'd lived long berore God gave the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai. Abraham was a Muslim."

He was Hebrew, read the Old Testament for yourself

"Muhammad acknowledged that Jesus was a prophet, and that the New Testament was a divine work,

Gee thanks, how big of him to do that! From the Letter of James, “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder”. (James 2:19) BTW, you might want to read James, he references Abraham several times.

but Christ was no Good; this seemed as blasphemous a claim to Muslims as it always had seemed to Jews. The Koran refuses to imagine God would "beget" a son. Let alone a third member of a Trinity."

Actually, all the original Christians were Jews, then Paul & Peter went out to the rest of the world

"In Islam, there is no deity but Allah, Creator of Heaven and earth:

Allah is still a moon god, not the creator of the Universe, find out why you use the Crescent Moon as an emblem on mosques, you can get rid of Allah’s daughters, but you can’t get rid of his sign

"He begets not, and neither is he begotten."

Allah’s daughters will cry, when they hear they have been disowned by their father, check out http://www.muslimhope.com/daughtersofallah.htm, they are ‘al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat’

"The call that summons Muslims to their prayful salat--Allahu Akbar!, "God is most great!"--reaffirms God's uniqueness and superiority."

Allahu the Moon god, is great? I think not! Yeshua Akbar!

"Like Jesus, Muhammad himself was a prophet,

more a warlord, lawgiver, tribal leader, if he was a prophet, why didn’t he know basic Judaism or Christianity?

but with a distinction: he was to be the last in the line of great prophets. God would reveal no more divine messages after the completion of the Koran."

how convenient, especially since islam goes so against Christianity

"Though Islam regards itself as the final and supreme revelation, the Koran teaches Muslims to respect Jews and Christians, the "People of the Book"--the Bible, that is, Testaments Old and New: Be courteous when you argue with the People of othe Book, ewxcept with those who do evil. Say, "We believe in that which is revealed to us and that which is revealed to you. Our God and your God is one."

but not the same, you worship the Moon god

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The promise is important because it reflects God's purpose with mankind - God creates an expectation based on His sovereignity: establishing of His presence among people, and His deliverance of them from this world. The destrction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the exodus from Egypt and the exile to Babylon were all manifestations of how this plan takes effect.
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(This also included Muslims.)

But not in a good way, as the rejected of God, they did not listen to his voice

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So was the expectation of a messiah. God established a precedent from which His purpose coould be known and prophesied. If God let every man be the promised child, there would be no end of messiahs - none with any more "anointedness/chosenness" than any other.
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(There was and still is only One God, Creator of the Universe. Believing in another "god" is blasphemy, according to Judaism, Islam and Xianity. The concept of the "trinity" was created much later by the hierarchy of the RCC, changing God from the One God to the Three-in-One package deal God. This concept was man-made as was the Savior theory.)

Thanks for telling me what & how Christianity believes & why, what an expert you are, it’s time you convert!

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The difference between Isaac and Ishmael was God's intention vs. man's intention. Yes, God blessed Ishmael just as Isaac, but God's covenant was His prerogative, not Abraham's. Anything that runs counter to the precedent established by God, runs counter to His purpose.
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(God did not establish the concept of the 'trinity.' Man did that. You've contradicted yourself again!)

I think you wanted to answer the previous question, but even Jesus asks, “who do you think I am? Your life depends on the answer

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The Jews think Jesus violated the precedent of the promised "king of the Jews" and therefore reject him as messiah - Christians believe he fulfilled the promise and became king of God's people, and accept him on the grounds of prophecy.
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(But you must realize that Jesus' prophecies were written by Saul/Paul or his colleagues. Again, these prophecies were man-made.)

as a muslim, you have to believe that, but as Christians we know what our Bible says & who wrote it

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(So you're saying that the Dome of the Rock was NOT the place where Isaac was to be sacrificed? So who was to be sacrificed at Mt. Moriah? And who was to be sacrificed at the Dome of the Rock? Back in the days of Abraham, it was q reasonable and customary procedure to sacrifice the "first born child" to the gods (plural intended). There is no way of denying that Ishmael was definitely Abraham's first-born child. The Valley of Gehinnom was in South Jerusalem where Hell got its name. It was actually a pagan cult child sacrifice that was being conducted there on a stone hearth during Abraham's time. It was not until the Law of Moses was established that condemned child sacrifice. In the Valley of Gehinnom, bodies of children were stacked and burning. This is where the idea of Hell came from, proving that there was a real "hell" at one time, but no more.) [/B]

No, I’m not saying that, I think muslims had to claim Jerusalem, so that they could conquer it, it was very convenient that Mohammad supposedly ascended to heaven there, how convenient, how interesting! Don’t you think?

 

[certified psycho]

who are Xians

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Who are Xians?

Originally posted by certified psycho
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who are Xians
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("X" = "Christ"; "Xians = "Christians". "X" is symbolic of the Christian cross. It's called St. Andrew's cross. I just read an interesting book. When Jesus traveled to China to study with the Buddhist priests (after the xifixion was staged), the name of the town is "Xian" and the descendants of the people who knew Jesus continue to call themselves "Xians" today! I thought I had coined that phrase. "Christmas" = "Xmas", etc. It is widely used and well-accepted by the RCC (Roman Catholic Church).

 

[Jenyar]

Indian Buddhism was only introduced to China in 58 AD. Paul was already incarcerated in Rome in 60 AD, so if you are right, Paul must have met Jesus during all his travels before then. Especially if he regarded Jesus as God.

If Jesus "went to China" after his death (ca 33 AD), he must have been the one who introduced it to them

 

[ConsequentAtheist]

Re: Who are Xians?

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
When Jesus traveled to China to study with the Buddhist priests (after the xifixion was staged), ...

It doesn't get any better than this.

 

[Circe]

If it's true that Jesus studied with the Buddhist priests, one may assume that he didn't take their teachings seriously because he had no problem eating fish and didn't oppose the sacrificial animal offerings.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Indian Buddhism was only introduced to China in 58 AD. Paul

Indian Buddhism is a later derivative of Buddhism. Buddha was born around 566 BC in Nepal, which was part of the great china. 500 years later upon the coming of Christ, Buddhism was very mature in this part of the world, and all religious scholars including prophet Jesus studied it.

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by Flores
Indian Buddhism is a later derivative of Buddhism. Buddha was born around 566 BC in Nepal, which was part of the great china.

The Buddha who is the founder of the Buddhist religion is called Buddha Shakyamuni. "Shakya" is the name of the royal family into which he was born, and "Muni" means "Able One." Buddha Skakyamuni was born as a royal prince in 624 BC in a place called Lumbini, which was originally in northern India but is now part of Nepal. His mother's name was Queen Mayadevi and his father's name was King Shuddhodana.

http://www.aboutbuddha.org/life-of-buddha.htm


The passing away, or the final nirvana of the Buddha, occurred in 543 BC on a full-moon day in the month of May, known in the Indian calendar as Vesak.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/lifebuddha/2_31lbud.htm

Buddha born, lived and passed away in ancient India. The Mahayana Buddhism was also orginated in India. Sorry, this time also, China has nothing to do with life of Buddha. Above links are genuine buddhist sites.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Re: Re: Who are Xians?

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
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It doesn't get any better than this.
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(Hey, I didn't state this as fact. I only read it briefly in a book at the bookstore. But, since you mentioned it, Eastern Indians really believe Jesus came to India. They have several shrines of Jesus and Mary in India. I don't know if this is factual, either. I've just read about it. Certainly, CA, there is no one wiser than thou.)

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Now Jesus eats fish!

Originally posted by Circe
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If it's true that Jesus studied with the Buddhist priests, one may assume that he didn't take their teachings seriously because he had no problem eating fish and didn't oppose the sacrificial animal offerings.
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(Please cite a reference where it says Jesus ate fish.)

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Re: Who are Xians?

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Originally posted by certified psycho
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who are Xians
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("X" = "Christ"; "Xians = "Christians". "X" is symbolic of the Christian cross. It's called St. Andrew's cross.

Christians don't like being crossed-out, they would rather carry the Cross (& you wouldn't want to be double-crossed either)

I just read an interesting book. When Jesus traveled to China to study with the Buddhist priests

Jesus in China? India? The early Americas? You guys believe everything except the truth! If any of this was true, why didn't Jesus ever reference His experiences there? Why didn’t He ever say, “As the Buddha used to say”? Or, “The way to god is by the eight-fold path of the Buddha”? Or, “we are all part of the godhead”? Or, “I am the 3rd reincarnation of the Buddha”? Or, “As it says in the Bhagavad Gita, ….”? Why are all His references from the Old Testament? Could it be that He came out from a Jewish experience only? Could it be that Jesus knew everything that He knew, because He was GOD?

(after the xifixion was staged), the name of the town is "Xian" and the descendants of the people who knew Jesus continue to call themselves "Xians" today!

2 colorful stories, so you take the muslim story line; hook, line & sinker?

So what do people believe? That Jesus supposedly went to India &/or China to learn either Hinduism &/or Buddhism, then went back to Israel to impart this wisdom? (first to set it up, to go to India &/or China, you would need to travel long distances (not unheard of), you need someone that understands one of the Indian or Chinese languages or a bilingual teacher (not unheard of), & a means of support (also, not unheard of), without a shred of evidence, except recent books, do people really believe that, that Jesus went to India/ or China? Let’s use a little ‘Occams Razor’ here, remember it goes something like this, “A problem should be stated in its basic and simplest terms. In science, the simplest theory that fits the facts of a problem is the one that should be selected.” (from http://www.2think.org/occams_razor.shtml), so, what do you think? What are the facts? What are the conclusions?

I thought I had coined that phrase. "Christmas" = "Xmas", etc.

it's been used by non-christians for years

It is widely used and well-accepted by the RCC (Roman Catholic Church).

do you have sites to check that out? Or you referring to the Catholic symbol Chi Rho?

 

[Circe]

Please cite a reference where it says Jesus ate fish

Luke 24:41-43

Now, your turn, please prove that Jesus traveled to China to study with the Buddhists. Or, at least describe how the author of the book you've read substantiates his/her claim.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Jesus ate fish

Originally posted by Circe
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Luke 24:41-43
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(Yes, you are correct. The Gospel of Luke does, indeed, say that Jesus ate fish. The problem I have with this is that Luke was a friend of Paul's. Paul commissioned the writing of the Gospel of Luke to perpetuate his (Paul's) creation of the mythology of a savior. Since Luke and Paul never met Jesus nor much less ever known what he might have eaten, this is just a concocted story for the benefit of Paul.)
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Now, your turn, please prove that Jesus traveled to China to study with the Buddhists. Or, at least describe how the author of the book you've read substantiates his/her claim.
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(Like I said, I scanned over a book at the bookstore. The point of the matter is the use of the term "Xian" was used in that book. As far as Jesus traveling to China, I don't know and I don't care if he did or didn't. Had I read the book, I might be able to answer your question, but I didn't nor did I buy it. However, there are many other publications available that explain Jesus' travels to China and India, and they're also not hard to find on the Internet.)

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Re: References, please!

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
(Then your understanding of Abraham's religion differs with National Geographic and Time Magazine in the articles they wrote about Abraham being a Muslim and the father of Islam. If you're a Xian, well, I'm sorry for you, but I'll call them anything I damn well please. Obviously, you haven't read the other posts explaining the acceptance of this spelling. Since you're a Xian, it's no wonder you don't know the truth!)

You silly xian, those are secular magazines, not churches, they believe in PC truth, Abraham was the biological father of Ishmael & Isaac, but only the spiritual father of the Jews & Christians. Mohammad is the father of islam, no connection with either Judaism or Christianity except by theft of some ideas, concepts & names 600 years after the fact. ever hear of plagiarism?

 

[okinrus]

Isn't the ascension of Mohammed only in the Hadith. If your speaking of Muhammed's night ride in one of the Hadiths, then it's clearly false because the temple was destoyed by 600AD.

 

[Jenyar]

M*W
Paul commissioned the writing of the Gospel of Luke to perpetuate his (Paul's) creation of the mythology of a savior

Wait a second. We can't know anything about Jesus, Paul, or Luke even if it was explicitly written down, but you know the actions and intentions behind the "lies" as if you saw them happening yesterday while you were looking through the kitchen window...

How exactly do you know that sinister Paul commissioned gullible Luke to lie about Jesus eating fish? And how does it aid his goal to create a Jewish saviour by making him sound un-Jewish?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Jenyar
Wait a second. We can't know anything about Jesus, Paul, or Luke even if it was explicitly written down, but you know the actions and intentions behind the "lies" as if you saw them happening yesterday while you were looking through the kitchen window...

How exactly do you know that sinister Paul commissioned gullible Luke to lie about Jesus eating fish? And how does it aid his goal to create a Jewish saviour by making him sound un-Jewish?

she was there, my are you an old M*W!