Why is this particular spot sacred to both Muslims and Xians? No Bible quotes, please! Just intelligent discussion.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
The Dome of the Rock
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
- Start date
The Muslims believe that is the place where Muhammed ascended into heaven.
Jews, and by extension through the Old Testament, believe it was the place where Isaac was bound for sacrifice by Abraham. I also believe it is on the location of the Jewish temple of Solomon. Often it is called the temple mount.
Jews, and by extension through the Old Testament, believe it was the place where Isaac was bound for sacrifice by Abraham. I also believe it is on the location of the Jewish temple of Solomon. Often it is called the temple mount.
The convenient temple mount
Originally posted by truth
----------
(Thanks for your answer.)
----------
The Muslims believe that is the place where Muhammed ascended into heaven. Jews, and by extension through the Old Testament, believe it was the place where Isaac was bound for sacrifice by Abraham. I also believe it is on the location of the Jewish temple of Solomon. Often it is called the temple mount.
----------
(It just seems to be a tad too convenient that Muhammed ascended at exactly the same place that Isaac was to have been sacrificed. That's the reason for my question. Isn't it also a Muslim belief that it was actually Ishmael who Abraham was supposed to have sacrificed? If that's the truth, then the Dome of the Rock belongs to Muslims and not Jews or Xians.)
Originally posted by truth
----------
(Thanks for your answer.)
----------
The Muslims believe that is the place where Muhammed ascended into heaven. Jews, and by extension through the Old Testament, believe it was the place where Isaac was bound for sacrifice by Abraham. I also believe it is on the location of the Jewish temple of Solomon. Often it is called the temple mount.
----------
(It just seems to be a tad too convenient that Muhammed ascended at exactly the same place that Isaac was to have been sacrificed. That's the reason for my question. Isn't it also a Muslim belief that it was actually Ishmael who Abraham was supposed to have sacrificed? If that's the truth, then the Dome of the Rock belongs to Muslims and not Jews or Xians.)
Abraham, Ishmael & Isaac
Originally posted by otheadp
----------
(Thanks for your answer.)
----------
both temples were on that mount. the Wailing Wall is the western wall of the last temple. plus, Abe almost sacrificed Isaac there
----------
(Why do you think that spot is so important? Those things could have happened anywhere else and still been considered to be holy sites. I'd like to hear a Muslim's take on this. My one big question is if Ishmael was Abraham's first born son, whom he loved very much, why does Isaac get all the hype in the Bible. There's rumors that Isaac was the son of Sarah and the Pharoah. Sarah means "princess" in Egyptian. That whole story about Abraham about to sacrifice Isaac seems strange. Since Abraham was himself a Muslim, how'd he end up with a Hebrew child who was possibly Egyptian, anyway?)
Originally posted by otheadp
----------
(Thanks for your answer.)
----------
both temples were on that mount. the Wailing Wall is the western wall of the last temple. plus, Abe almost sacrificed Isaac there
----------
(Why do you think that spot is so important? Those things could have happened anywhere else and still been considered to be holy sites. I'd like to hear a Muslim's take on this. My one big question is if Ishmael was Abraham's first born son, whom he loved very much, why does Isaac get all the hype in the Bible. There's rumors that Isaac was the son of Sarah and the Pharoah. Sarah means "princess" in Egyptian. That whole story about Abraham about to sacrifice Isaac seems strange. Since Abraham was himself a Muslim, how'd he end up with a Hebrew child who was possibly Egyptian, anyway?)
Re: Abraham, Ishmael & Isaac
Abraham wasn't a Muslim, because you can't be Muslim without the Quran, which was only written 600AD. He was a man faithful to God, and therefore only "Muslim" by "submission" - but that would make all his descendents, including the Hebrew Israelites "Muslim".
God promised Abraham a son, but he became old and thought God forgot His promise, so He had a child with Sarah's Egyptian servant Hagar. It could be possible Sarah was also Egyptian, but we don't know that. (Later, when Joseph lives in Egypt, it is said that the Egyptians did not mix with Hebrews). But Ishmael wasn't the child God promised, because He promised it to Abraham by Sarah. Isaac's son was Jacob, who became Israel, who were Hebrews.
Jerusalem is symbolic of God's kingdom, and the temple of His presence. No other reason.Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Why do you think that spot is so important? Those things could have happened anywhere else and still been considered to be holy sites. I'd like to hear a Muslim's take on this. My one big question is if Ishmael was Abraham's first born son, whom he loved very much, why does Isaac get all the hype in the Bible. There's rumors that Isaac was the son of Sarah and the Pharoah. Sarah means "princess" in Egyptian. That whole story about Abraham about to sacrifice Isaac seems strange. Since Abraham was himself a Muslim, how'd he end up with a Hebrew child who was possibly Egyptian, anyway?
Abraham wasn't a Muslim, because you can't be Muslim without the Quran, which was only written 600AD. He was a man faithful to God, and therefore only "Muslim" by "submission" - but that would make all his descendents, including the Hebrew Israelites "Muslim".
God promised Abraham a son, but he became old and thought God forgot His promise, so He had a child with Sarah's Egyptian servant Hagar. It could be possible Sarah was also Egyptian, but we don't know that. (Later, when Joseph lives in Egypt, it is said that the Egyptians did not mix with Hebrews). But Ishmael wasn't the child God promised, because He promised it to Abraham by Sarah. Isaac's son was Jacob, who became Israel, who were Hebrews.
Re: Re: Abraham, Ishmael & Isaac
Originally posted by Jenyar
----------
Jerusalem is symbolic of God's kingdom, and the temple of His presence. No other reason.
----------
(But Jesus and his mother were from Palestine. Being that is so, why do you think the Palestinians today don't deserve to have their own land? What do you think Jesus would think about this travesty of his homeland today?)
----------
Abraham wasn't a Muslim, because you can't be Muslim without the Quran, which was only written 600AD. He was a man faithful to God, and therefore only "Muslim" by "submission" - but that would make all his descendents, including the Hebrew Israelites "Muslim".
----------
(I'm not so sure about this. I've read National Geographic, Time Magazine, and many other archeological articles that indicate Abraham was the father of Islam. He also loved Ishmael very much, and it was Sarah's envy of Hagar and Ishmael that Abraham sent them away. But the articles tell of Abraham visiting Ishmael often and bestowing on him many riches. Abraham was forced to abandon Ishmael because Sarah was an Egyptian princess, and he had to obey the Pharoah.)
----------
God promised Abraham a son, but he became old and thought God forgot His promise, so He had a child with Sarah's Egyptian servant Hagar. It could be possible Sarah was also Egyptian, but we don't know that.
----------
(Yeah, Abraham couldn't wait, and Sarah was supposed to be barren. It was reasonable and customary in those times to impregnant the handmaiden of the house.)
----------
Later, when Joseph lives in Egypt, it is said that the Egyptians did not mix with Hebrews.
----------
(The Hebrews WERE Egyptians. They were a small tribe in Egypt of the Hibiru. They were inferior to the royal houses of Egypt. They were simply nomads in the desert. That was their job, for God's sake, they wandered in the desert their entire lives!)
----------
But Ishmael wasn't the child God promised...,
----------
(So, you're saying some children are born but not promised? Then that would be agreeable with abortion, would it not? Wouldn't it have been so much easier for the Jews and Xians if Ishmael were never born?)
----------
...because He promised it to Abraham by Sarah.
----------
(Why would God promise one child but not another? That seems quite ambiguous considering God was supposed to have been the Creator of the human race. Why would God, in all his infinite love and wisdom, choose favoratism of one child and not the other? I don't see God being this judgmental.)
----------
Isaac's son was Jacob, who became Israel, who were Hebrews.
----------
(That would be true if we knew the real paternity of Isaac. At this time they were still of the Egyptian tribe of the Hibiru, so it's very possible that Sarah was impregnated by the Pharoah. It was with Abraham's wishes (if you read your Bible) that says Abraham didn't even want the Pharoah to know that Sarah was his wife! He wanted her to pose as his sister, so she became one of the Pharoah's concubines. Isaac was an issue of this association, so he was actually an Egyptian prince. Any wonder Joseph (an Egyptian title) went back to his homeland?)
Originally posted by Jenyar
----------
Jerusalem is symbolic of God's kingdom, and the temple of His presence. No other reason.
----------
(But Jesus and his mother were from Palestine. Being that is so, why do you think the Palestinians today don't deserve to have their own land? What do you think Jesus would think about this travesty of his homeland today?)
----------
Abraham wasn't a Muslim, because you can't be Muslim without the Quran, which was only written 600AD. He was a man faithful to God, and therefore only "Muslim" by "submission" - but that would make all his descendents, including the Hebrew Israelites "Muslim".
----------
(I'm not so sure about this. I've read National Geographic, Time Magazine, and many other archeological articles that indicate Abraham was the father of Islam. He also loved Ishmael very much, and it was Sarah's envy of Hagar and Ishmael that Abraham sent them away. But the articles tell of Abraham visiting Ishmael often and bestowing on him many riches. Abraham was forced to abandon Ishmael because Sarah was an Egyptian princess, and he had to obey the Pharoah.)
----------
God promised Abraham a son, but he became old and thought God forgot His promise, so He had a child with Sarah's Egyptian servant Hagar. It could be possible Sarah was also Egyptian, but we don't know that.
----------
(Yeah, Abraham couldn't wait, and Sarah was supposed to be barren. It was reasonable and customary in those times to impregnant the handmaiden of the house.)
----------
Later, when Joseph lives in Egypt, it is said that the Egyptians did not mix with Hebrews.
----------
(The Hebrews WERE Egyptians. They were a small tribe in Egypt of the Hibiru. They were inferior to the royal houses of Egypt. They were simply nomads in the desert. That was their job, for God's sake, they wandered in the desert their entire lives!)
----------
But Ishmael wasn't the child God promised...,
----------
(So, you're saying some children are born but not promised? Then that would be agreeable with abortion, would it not? Wouldn't it have been so much easier for the Jews and Xians if Ishmael were never born?)
----------
...because He promised it to Abraham by Sarah.
----------
(Why would God promise one child but not another? That seems quite ambiguous considering God was supposed to have been the Creator of the human race. Why would God, in all his infinite love and wisdom, choose favoratism of one child and not the other? I don't see God being this judgmental.)
----------
Isaac's son was Jacob, who became Israel, who were Hebrews.
----------
(That would be true if we knew the real paternity of Isaac. At this time they were still of the Egyptian tribe of the Hibiru, so it's very possible that Sarah was impregnated by the Pharoah. It was with Abraham's wishes (if you read your Bible) that says Abraham didn't even want the Pharoah to know that Sarah was his wife! He wanted her to pose as his sister, so she became one of the Pharoah's concubines. Isaac was an issue of this association, so he was actually an Egyptian prince. Any wonder Joseph (an Egyptian title) went back to his homeland?)
Re: Abraham, Ishmael & Isaac
At nearly 800 meters in height and 45 acres in area, Mount Moriah is the largest, most impressive-looking mountain in the region. If you wanted to pick a spot for someone to commune with god, be taken into heaven, etc. it would be the natural choice.Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
Why do you think that spot is so important? Those things could have happened anywhere else and still been considered to be holy sites.
It has nothing to do with who should own the Israel/Palestine land. The Palestinian's own stupidity is what got them kicked out in the first place. It makes it even worse when their own "brothers" won't accept them into their countries. And it makes it even more worse when Israel wins like a 4v1 war. The majority of Palestinian's don't even know the geography of the world. They have no idea where the United States is. They think the world is a giant turtle shell. And they think the Earth is the center of the universe. When the mass majority of them believe such bizarre things it is hard to see why anyone would question the Jews control over the "holy land". And Israel has the most powerful army in the world, so I don't think they are going anywhere for a while. (and for those of you who just choked when I said Israel has the strongest army, it's true. U.S. has the strongest Air Force. Thats probably what you were thinking)
python_kiss
Registered Member
Yes Abraham was the first Muslim. He followed Gods message in its pure form, therefore he is regarded as the man of the book. Xians, and Jews are also regarded as the 'people of the book'.
ConsequentAtheist
Registered Senior Member
It's hard to imagine Palestinians being "even more worse" than this pitifully ignorant bigotry.Originally posted by ScrollMaker
It makes it even worse when their own "brothers" won't accept them into their countries. And it makes it even more worse when Israel wins like a 4v1 war. The majority of Palestinian's don't even know the geography of the world. They have no idea where the United States is. They think the world is a giant turtle shell. And they think the Earth is the center of the universe.
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
Re: The convenient temple mount
The reason was that Mohammad's followers wanted to claim Jerusalem, why else add that after M had changed the Qibla from Jerusalem to Mecca? (the direction of prayer)Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
It just seems to be a tad too convenient that Muhammed ascended at exactly the same place that Isaac was to have been sacrificed.
The reason is to claim the Divine Promise fro Arabs, if Abraham roamed the area around Israel, is buried in Hebron, he must be Jewish, Arabs needed to change the Bible to steal the Promise, that's why there is a QuranThat's the reason for my question. Isn't it also a Muslim belief that it was actually Ishmael who Abraham was supposed to have sacrificed?
If it were true, yes, but where is the evidence? BTW what's a 'Xian'? I hope you don't mean Christians? Because I'm not an X, maybe Malcolm was, I think most Christians prefer "Christian" as a self-designation, thank youIf that's the truth, then the Dome of the Rock belongs to Muslims and not Jews or Xians.
Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
pitifully ignorant bigotry.
Probably so, but do you think the outcome would be better if it was the Palestinians who controlled Israel?
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
Islam did not exist until Mohammad made it up, Mohammad was the first muslimOriginally posted by python_kiss
Yes Abraham was the first Muslim.
That Abraham was a 'muslim', would be news to God, Abraham, & all his descendants. Even Arabs would have been surprised up until Mohammad came along with his storiesHe followed Gods message in its pure form, therefore he is regarded as the man of the book.
If I'm a "Xian", are you a "Mian"? Use the correct term, "Christian", thank youXians, and Jews are also regarded as the 'people of the book'.
References, please!
Originally posted by Randolfo
----------
Islam did not exist until Mohammad made it up, Mohammad was the first muslim. That Abraham was a 'muslim', would be news to God, Abraham, & all his descendants. Even Arabs would have been surprised up until Mohammad came along with his stories. If I'm a "Xian", are you a "Mian"? Use the correct term, "Christian", thank you.
----------
(Then your understanding of Abraham's religion differs with National Geographic and Time Magazine in the articles they wrote about Abraham being a Muslim and the father of Islam. If you're a Xian, well, I'm sorry for you, but I'll call them anything I damn well please. Obviously, you haven't read the other posts explaining the acceptance of this spelling. Since you're a Xian, it's no wonder you don't know the truth!)
Originally posted by Randolfo
----------
Islam did not exist until Mohammad made it up, Mohammad was the first muslim. That Abraham was a 'muslim', would be news to God, Abraham, & all his descendants. Even Arabs would have been surprised up until Mohammad came along with his stories. If I'm a "Xian", are you a "Mian"? Use the correct term, "Christian", thank you.
----------
(Then your understanding of Abraham's religion differs with National Geographic and Time Magazine in the articles they wrote about Abraham being a Muslim and the father of Islam. If you're a Xian, well, I'm sorry for you, but I'll call them anything I damn well please. Obviously, you haven't read the other posts explaining the acceptance of this spelling. Since you're a Xian, it's no wonder you don't know the truth!)
Re: References, please!
That is not the same as saying he was a Muslim. That's like saying Abraham was a Christian, which also can't be (for the obvious reason that there were no "Christians" before Christ).
Abraham was the first person "chosen" by God to become His people, in the face of other "gods" - a promised nation with a promised land. The "choosing" is closely related to God's promise of making Abraham's descendents a great nation, just as it is closely related to who are justified in God's eyes and who are outside his will: God's people would ultimately inhabit God's kingdom, with God as king.
The promise is important because it reflects God's purpose with mankind - God creates an expectation based on His sovereignity: establishing of His presence among people, and His deliverance of them from this world. The destrction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the exodus from Egypt and the exile to Babylon were all manifestations of how this plan takes effect. So was the expectation of a messiah. God established a precedent from which His purpose coould be known and prophesied. If God let every man be the promised child, there would be no end of messiahs - none with any more "anointedness/chosenness" than any other.
The difference between Isaac and Ishmael was God's intention vs. man's intention. Yes, God blessed Ishmael just as Isaac, but God's covenant was His prerogative, not Abraham's. Anything that runs counter to the precedent established by God, runs counter to His purpose. The Jews think Jesus violated the precedent of the promised "king of the Jews" and therefore reject him as messiah - Christians believe he fulfilled the promise and became king of God's people, and accept him on the grounds of prophecy.
PS. Back on the topic: Mt. Moriah was the traditional place where Isaac was almost sacrificed, and where God provided His own substitute. Again, a precedent for things to come. Abraham was blessed by the high priest of God, Melchisedek, "the king of Salem", which later become Jerusalem, the city of David (one time shepherd and king of the Jews). History, precedent, prophecy... and expectation of the fulfillment of a promise by God. That is why the site is so important.
I would like to see the National Geographic article, but I've read the Time article you're referring to. What it really simply states is that both Jews (and therefore Christians) and Muslims have Abraham as the father of their religion. He stands at the point of intersection between the kingdom of God and men; he represents the inception of God's plan with the world.Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
(Then your understanding of Abraham's religion differs with National Geographic and Time Magazine in the articles they wrote about Abraham being a Muslim and the father of Islam. If you're a Xian, well, I'm sorry for you, but I'll call them anything I damn well please. Obviously, you haven't read the other posts explaining the acceptance of this spelling. Since you're a Xian, it's no wonder you don't know the truth!)
That is not the same as saying he was a Muslim. That's like saying Abraham was a Christian, which also can't be (for the obvious reason that there were no "Christians" before Christ).
Abraham was the first person "chosen" by God to become His people, in the face of other "gods" - a promised nation with a promised land. The "choosing" is closely related to God's promise of making Abraham's descendents a great nation, just as it is closely related to who are justified in God's eyes and who are outside his will: God's people would ultimately inhabit God's kingdom, with God as king.
The promise is important because it reflects God's purpose with mankind - God creates an expectation based on His sovereignity: establishing of His presence among people, and His deliverance of them from this world. The destrction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the exodus from Egypt and the exile to Babylon were all manifestations of how this plan takes effect. So was the expectation of a messiah. God established a precedent from which His purpose coould be known and prophesied. If God let every man be the promised child, there would be no end of messiahs - none with any more "anointedness/chosenness" than any other.
The difference between Isaac and Ishmael was God's intention vs. man's intention. Yes, God blessed Ishmael just as Isaac, but God's covenant was His prerogative, not Abraham's. Anything that runs counter to the precedent established by God, runs counter to His purpose. The Jews think Jesus violated the precedent of the promised "king of the Jews" and therefore reject him as messiah - Christians believe he fulfilled the promise and became king of God's people, and accept him on the grounds of prophecy.
PS. Back on the topic: Mt. Moriah was the traditional place where Isaac was almost sacrificed, and where God provided His own substitute. Again, a precedent for things to come. Abraham was blessed by the high priest of God, Melchisedek, "the king of Salem", which later become Jerusalem, the city of David (one time shepherd and king of the Jews). History, precedent, prophecy... and expectation of the fulfillment of a promise by God. That is why the site is so important.
Last edited:
Re: Re: References, please!
Originally posted by Jenyar
----------
I would like to see the National Geographic article, but I've read the Time article you're referring to. What it really simply states is that both Jews (and therefore Christians) and Muslims have Abraham as the father of their religion. He stands at the point of intersection between the kingdom of God and men; he represents the inception of God's plan with the world.
----------
(Well, sorry, I cannot conveniently hand you the National Geographic article, you'll have to find it yourself. There are many other references that Abraham was a Muslim. That's like saying Abraham was a Christian, which also can't be (for the obvious reason that there were no "Christians" before Christ)
----------
(You're wrong, again! There were no Xians after Jesus' time until Saul/Paul coined the term long, long after Jesus was out of the city.)
----------
Abraham was the first person "chosen" by God to become His people, in the face of other "gods" - a promised nation with a promised land. The "choosing" is closely related to God's promise of making Abraham's descendents a great nation, just as it is closely related to who are justified in God's eyes and who are outside his will: God's people would ultimately inhabit God's kingdom, with God as king.
----------
(Cited reference: Sacred Origins of Profound Things: The stories behind the rites and rituals of the world's religions, Charles Panati, PhD, Penguin Books, USA 1996, pp 212-213.: "By the close of the seventh century, CE, monotheism, in the form of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, had all but wiped out the polytheism of the past. One God had replaced many."
"Was Muhammad himself the first Muslim? No. Abraham was the first Muslim, reasoned Muhammad, because the father of the Jewish people had submitted so perfectly to God."
"In fact, Muhammad argued that Abraham had not been Jewish because he'd lived long berore God gave the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai. Abraham was a Muslim."
"Muhammad acknowledged that Jesus was a prophet, and that the New Testament was a divine work, but Christ was no Good; this seemed as blasphemous a claim to Muslims as it always had seemed to Jews. The Koran refuses to imagine God would "beget" a son. Let alone a third member of a Trinity."
"In Islam, there is no deity but Allah, Creator of Heaven and earth: "He begets not, and neither is he begotten."
"The call that summons Muslims to their prayful salat--Allahu Akbar!, "God is most great!"--reaffirms God's uniqueness and superiority."
"Like Jesus, Muhammad himself was a prophet, but with a distinction: he was to be the last in the line of great prophets. God would reveal no more divine messages after the completion of the Koran."
"Though Islam regards itself as the final and supreme revelation, the Koran teaches Muslims to respect Jews and Christians, the "People of the Book"--the Bible, that is, Testaments Old and New: Be courteous when you argue with the People of othe Book, ewxcept with those who do evil. Say, "We believe in that which is revealed to us and that which is revealed to you. Our God and your God is one." (Koran 29:46)
----------
The promise is important because it reflects God's purpose with mankind - God creates an expectation based on His sovereignity: establishing of His presence among people, and His deliverance of them from this world. The destrction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the exodus from Egypt and the exile to Babylon were all manifestations of how this plan takes effect.
----------
(This also included Muslims.)
----------
So was the expectation of a messiah. God established a precedent from which His purpose coould be known and prophesied. If God let every man be the promised child, there would be no end of messiahs - none with any more "anointedness/chosenness" than any other.
----------
(There was and still is only One God, Creator of the Universe. Believing in another "god" is blasphemy, according to Judaism, Islam and Xianity. The concept of the "trinity" was created much later by the hierarchy of the RCC, changing God from the One God to the Three-in-One package deal God. This concept was man-made as was the Savior theory.)
----------
The difference between Isaac and Ishmael was God's intention vs. man's intention. Yes, God blessed Ishmael just as Isaac, but God's covenant was His prerogative, not Abraham's. Anything that runs counter to the precedent established by God, runs counter to His purpose.
----------
(God did not establish the concept of the 'trinity.' Man did that. You've contradicted yourself again!)
----------
The Jews think Jesus violated the precedent of the promised "king of the Jews" and therefore reject him as messiah - Christians believe he fulfilled the promise and became king of God's people, and accept him on the grounds of prophecy.
----------
(But you must realize that Jesus' prophecies were written by Saul/Paul or his colleagues. Again, these prophecies were man-made.)
----------
Back on the topic: Mt. Moriah was the traditional place where Isaac was almost sacrificed, and where God provided His own substitute. Again, a precedent for things to come. Abraham was blessed by the high priest of God, Melchisedek, "the king of Salem", which later become Jerusalem, the city of David (one time shepherd and king of the Jews). History, precedent, prophecy... and expectation of the fulfillment of a promise by God. That is why the site is so important.
----------
(So you're saying that the Dome of the Rock was NOT the place where Isaac was to be sacrificed? So who was to be sacrificed at Mt. Moriah? And who was to be sacrificed at the Dome of the Rock? Back in the days of Abraham, it was q reasonable and customary procedure to sacrifice the "first born child" to the gods (plural intended). There is no way of denying that Ishmael was definitely Abraham's first-born child. The Valley of Gehinnom was in South Jerusalem where Hell got its name. It was actually a pagan cult child sacrifice that was being conducted there on a stone hearth during Abraham's time. It was not until the Law of Moses was established that condemned child sacrifice. In the Valley of Gehinnom, bodies of children were stacked and burning. This is where the idea of Hell came from, proving that there was a real "hell" at one time, but no more.)
Originally posted by Jenyar
----------
I would like to see the National Geographic article, but I've read the Time article you're referring to. What it really simply states is that both Jews (and therefore Christians) and Muslims have Abraham as the father of their religion. He stands at the point of intersection between the kingdom of God and men; he represents the inception of God's plan with the world.
----------
(Well, sorry, I cannot conveniently hand you the National Geographic article, you'll have to find it yourself. There are many other references that Abraham was a Muslim. That's like saying Abraham was a Christian, which also can't be (for the obvious reason that there were no "Christians" before Christ)
----------
(You're wrong, again! There were no Xians after Jesus' time until Saul/Paul coined the term long, long after Jesus was out of the city.)
----------
Abraham was the first person "chosen" by God to become His people, in the face of other "gods" - a promised nation with a promised land. The "choosing" is closely related to God's promise of making Abraham's descendents a great nation, just as it is closely related to who are justified in God's eyes and who are outside his will: God's people would ultimately inhabit God's kingdom, with God as king.
----------
(Cited reference: Sacred Origins of Profound Things: The stories behind the rites and rituals of the world's religions, Charles Panati, PhD, Penguin Books, USA 1996, pp 212-213.: "By the close of the seventh century, CE, monotheism, in the form of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, had all but wiped out the polytheism of the past. One God had replaced many."
"Was Muhammad himself the first Muslim? No. Abraham was the first Muslim, reasoned Muhammad, because the father of the Jewish people had submitted so perfectly to God."
"In fact, Muhammad argued that Abraham had not been Jewish because he'd lived long berore God gave the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai. Abraham was a Muslim."
"Muhammad acknowledged that Jesus was a prophet, and that the New Testament was a divine work, but Christ was no Good; this seemed as blasphemous a claim to Muslims as it always had seemed to Jews. The Koran refuses to imagine God would "beget" a son. Let alone a third member of a Trinity."
"In Islam, there is no deity but Allah, Creator of Heaven and earth: "He begets not, and neither is he begotten."
"The call that summons Muslims to their prayful salat--Allahu Akbar!, "God is most great!"--reaffirms God's uniqueness and superiority."
"Like Jesus, Muhammad himself was a prophet, but with a distinction: he was to be the last in the line of great prophets. God would reveal no more divine messages after the completion of the Koran."
"Though Islam regards itself as the final and supreme revelation, the Koran teaches Muslims to respect Jews and Christians, the "People of the Book"--the Bible, that is, Testaments Old and New: Be courteous when you argue with the People of othe Book, ewxcept with those who do evil. Say, "We believe in that which is revealed to us and that which is revealed to you. Our God and your God is one." (Koran 29:46)
----------
The promise is important because it reflects God's purpose with mankind - God creates an expectation based on His sovereignity: establishing of His presence among people, and His deliverance of them from this world. The destrction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the exodus from Egypt and the exile to Babylon were all manifestations of how this plan takes effect.
----------
(This also included Muslims.)
----------
So was the expectation of a messiah. God established a precedent from which His purpose coould be known and prophesied. If God let every man be the promised child, there would be no end of messiahs - none with any more "anointedness/chosenness" than any other.
----------
(There was and still is only One God, Creator of the Universe. Believing in another "god" is blasphemy, according to Judaism, Islam and Xianity. The concept of the "trinity" was created much later by the hierarchy of the RCC, changing God from the One God to the Three-in-One package deal God. This concept was man-made as was the Savior theory.)
----------
The difference between Isaac and Ishmael was God's intention vs. man's intention. Yes, God blessed Ishmael just as Isaac, but God's covenant was His prerogative, not Abraham's. Anything that runs counter to the precedent established by God, runs counter to His purpose.
----------
(God did not establish the concept of the 'trinity.' Man did that. You've contradicted yourself again!)
----------
The Jews think Jesus violated the precedent of the promised "king of the Jews" and therefore reject him as messiah - Christians believe he fulfilled the promise and became king of God's people, and accept him on the grounds of prophecy.
----------
(But you must realize that Jesus' prophecies were written by Saul/Paul or his colleagues. Again, these prophecies were man-made.)
----------
Back on the topic: Mt. Moriah was the traditional place where Isaac was almost sacrificed, and where God provided His own substitute. Again, a precedent for things to come. Abraham was blessed by the high priest of God, Melchisedek, "the king of Salem", which later become Jerusalem, the city of David (one time shepherd and king of the Jews). History, precedent, prophecy... and expectation of the fulfillment of a promise by God. That is why the site is so important.
----------
(So you're saying that the Dome of the Rock was NOT the place where Isaac was to be sacrificed? So who was to be sacrificed at Mt. Moriah? And who was to be sacrificed at the Dome of the Rock? Back in the days of Abraham, it was q reasonable and customary procedure to sacrifice the "first born child" to the gods (plural intended). There is no way of denying that Ishmael was definitely Abraham's first-born child. The Valley of Gehinnom was in South Jerusalem where Hell got its name. It was actually a pagan cult child sacrifice that was being conducted there on a stone hearth during Abraham's time. It was not until the Law of Moses was established that condemned child sacrifice. In the Valley of Gehinnom, bodies of children were stacked and burning. This is where the idea of Hell came from, proving that there was a real "hell" at one time, but no more.)
Exactly how long after? A source would be great...You're wrong, again! There were no Xians after Jesus' time until Saul/Paul coined the term long, long after Jesus was out of the city.)
They're everywhere...
Originally posted by Jenyar
----------
Exactly how long after? A source would be great...
----------
(Jenyar, this has been discussed many times on this forum. For a reference you can look up, the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. But here's some excerpts from the book, THE MYTHMAKER: PAUL AND THE INVENTION OF CHRISTIANITY, by Hyam Maccoby, 1998 Barnes & Noble Books. "What would Jesus himself have thought of Paul? We must remember that Jesus never knew Paul; the two men never once met. The disciples who knew Jesus best, such as Peter, James and John, have left no writings behind them explaining how Jesus seemed to them or what they considered his mission to have been. Paul claimed that his interpretations were not just how own invention, but had come to him by personal inspiration; he claimed that he had personal acquaintance of the resurrected Jesus, even though he had never met him during his lifetime. We know about Paul not only from his own letters fut also from the book of Acts, which gives a full account of his life. Paul, in fact, is the hero of Acts, which was written by an admirer and follow of his, namely, Luke, who was also the author of the Gospel of that name. From Acts, it would appear that there was som friction betweenPaul and the leaders of the 'Jerusalem Church', the surviving companions of Jesus."(p.3)
"...the earliest writings in the NT are actually Paul's letters, which were written about AD 50-60, while the Gospels were not written until the period AD 70-110. This means that the theories of Paul were already before the writers of othe Gospels an dcolored their interpretations of Jesus' activities."(p.4)
"Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity as a new religion which developed away from both normal Judaism and the Nazarene variety of Judaism. In this new religion, the Torah was abrogated as having had only temporary validity. The central myth of the new religion was that of an atoning death of a divine being. Belief in this sacrifice, and a mystical sharing of the death of the deity, formed the only path to salvation. Paul derived this religion from Hellenistic sources, chiefly by a fusion of concepts taken from Gnosticism and concepts taken from the mystery religions, particularly from that of Attis. ...and Paul alone was the creator of this amalgam."(p.16)
Originally posted by Jenyar
----------
Exactly how long after? A source would be great...
----------
(Jenyar, this has been discussed many times on this forum. For a reference you can look up, the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. But here's some excerpts from the book, THE MYTHMAKER: PAUL AND THE INVENTION OF CHRISTIANITY, by Hyam Maccoby, 1998 Barnes & Noble Books. "What would Jesus himself have thought of Paul? We must remember that Jesus never knew Paul; the two men never once met. The disciples who knew Jesus best, such as Peter, James and John, have left no writings behind them explaining how Jesus seemed to them or what they considered his mission to have been. Paul claimed that his interpretations were not just how own invention, but had come to him by personal inspiration; he claimed that he had personal acquaintance of the resurrected Jesus, even though he had never met him during his lifetime. We know about Paul not only from his own letters fut also from the book of Acts, which gives a full account of his life. Paul, in fact, is the hero of Acts, which was written by an admirer and follow of his, namely, Luke, who was also the author of the Gospel of that name. From Acts, it would appear that there was som friction betweenPaul and the leaders of the 'Jerusalem Church', the surviving companions of Jesus."(p.3)
"...the earliest writings in the NT are actually Paul's letters, which were written about AD 50-60, while the Gospels were not written until the period AD 70-110. This means that the theories of Paul were already before the writers of othe Gospels an dcolored their interpretations of Jesus' activities."(p.4)
"Paul, not Jesus, was the founder of Christianity as a new religion which developed away from both normal Judaism and the Nazarene variety of Judaism. In this new religion, the Torah was abrogated as having had only temporary validity. The central myth of the new religion was that of an atoning death of a divine being. Belief in this sacrifice, and a mystical sharing of the death of the deity, formed the only path to salvation. Paul derived this religion from Hellenistic sources, chiefly by a fusion of concepts taken from Gnosticism and concepts taken from the mystery religions, particularly from that of Attis. ...and Paul alone was the creator of this amalgam."(p.16)