The Divine Man

[Leo Volont]

Leo: The Dark Ages were not even dark as much learning and innovation took place in this period. It was nicknamed the "dark ages" through lack of proper records of the time but archeology has proven beyond doubt, that, especially here in the UK, there was a flourishing trade with Egypt and the Mediterranean, there were books being written, people could read, albeit not all that many, farming methods were "significantly" advanced for the time and social infrastructure did not perish with the departure of Rome, but actually improved. Diet was rich and varied and people ate off plates etc made in Turkey and the region. The monasteries palyed a large part in this and were excellent teachers to the "masses".

As for the three artists you promote in your thread, they were all members of a society opposed to the church in rome.

Yes, now that you mention it, it WAS a Protestant Historical convention to call the Embryonic Catholic Civilization the Dark Ages.

However, you need to recognize that with the collapse of Centralized Roman Administration and with the disruptions of external Barbarian Invasions, Peace and Commerce DID greatly suffer.

The Church was able to maintain a Universal Language, Latin, and was able to keep communication and education available through the Monasteries.

But security was very precarious for awhile. For instance, during Roman Administration large estates were built without bordering walls and Battlements. In what we term the "Dark Ages" private estates were abandoned unless battlements could be built and sizeable security forces engaged to protect them. This was a huge drain on the economies -- more than half of their gross product went to support private armies. Cities had to put more money into building Walls than building roads. (we have a modern parallel to such waste and inefficiencies -- America today spends almost 30% of its Gross National Product on lawyers who produce nothing but who tend to shut down the rest of Business or toss productive citizens into the Jails, and then because of their high incomes, bid up the price of cars and real estate so that nobody else can affort to buy anything).

The success of Catholicism was in finally establishing a few centuries of relative peace -- it was not an absolute Peace and it didn't last longj, but it did achieve a High Point of Civilization and it has been downhill ever since.

 

[battig1370]

Hello Leo, You say, "He was born Divine" that Jesus was not born as an ordinary human being. Then can you explain why Jesus says, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" - ( Matt. 5:48 ) WHO is the 'you' that Jesus is talking about?

From my understanding, Jesus said, it is possible for any other person to be perfect as that person's Father in heaven is perfect.

Jesus spoke to His disciples saying, " --- I have overcome the world." - (John 16:33)

Also Jesus said to John, "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, 'as I also overcame' and sat down with My Father on His throne. - (Rev. 3:21) 'as I also overcame' 'As Jesus overcame'?

From what you have written, I conclude that ( Matt. 5:48 ) and (Rev. 3:21) is false, because how an ordinary human being overcome as Jesus overcame? Also, when Jesus said, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" must be a lie because the 'you' that Jesus was talking about cannot be an ordinary human being. Is my conclusion correct in what you believe?

Peace be with you, Paul

 

[cole grey]

However, you need to recognize that with the collapse of Centralized Roman Administration and with the disruptions of external Barbarian Invasions, Peace and Commerce DID greatly suffer.

This is the kind of logic republicans will use to absolve themselves after america's economy collapses.

 

[battig1370]

Jesus said, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" - ( Matt. 5:48 )

WHO is, or are the 'you' that Jesus is talking about?


Jesus spoke to His disciples saying, " --- I have overcome the world." - (John 16:33)
Also Jesus said to John, "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, 'as I also overcame' and sat down with My Father on His throne. - (Rev. 3:21) 'as I also overcame' 'As Jesus overcame'?

WHO is the 'him' that overcomes as Jesus overcame?


Jesus spoke these words, "--- And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one. ---" - ( John 17 )

WHO is, or are the 'they' that may be one just as the Father and Jesus are one?


What I see here is that Jesus is asking us to be perfect as our Father in heaven, to overcome as He overcame, and to be one just as the Father and He are one.

I ask Leo Volont or anyone else, why would Jesus is ask us to be perfect as our Father in heaven, to overcome as He overcame, to be one just as the Father and He are one, and to become The Divine Man as He became if "He was born Divine"?

Peace be with you, Paul

 

[Leo Volont]

This is the kind of logic republicans will use to absolve themselves after america's economy collapses.

When America's Economy collapses, there will no longer be a Republican Party. The Republican Party simply never had that kind of 'grass roots'. People call themselves 'Republican' but that does not mean that they have ever been to one of the 'Meetings'. There are no 'Meetings'. So really, the only real Republican's are the Politicians who have gained office as 'Republicans', and that is too few to matter once the Economy falls apart.

After the American Economy collapses we will find that there is such a thing as a non-Islamic Terrorist. Remember Timothy McVie? After the Oklahoma Federal Building bombing we were all aware for awhile that the Militia Groups and the National Rifle Association had the potential of being formidable Terrorist Organizations, but 9-11 put that out of Public Consciousness as we began to worry about other things. But if the Economy collapses, I suspect that all these Gun Wielding and Bomb Throwing Organizations will rise up, and if there is still anything good and decent left, they will fight over it and destroy it. And it will become impossible to re-assert Law and Order until all those nuts have run out of ammo.

 

[Leo Volont]

I ask Leo Volont or anyone else, why would Jesus is ask us to be perfect as our Father in heaven, to overcome as He overcame, to be one just as the Father and He are one, and to become The Divine Man as He became if "He was born Divine"?

Peace be with you, Paul

To put your question into historical perspective, you are resurrecting the Arian Heresy, that Christ was not essentially Divine and Co-Eternal with God, and that Christ was something of a triumph for Humanity -- a Man achieving Divinity.

The Catholic Church and the Arians spilled much blood settling this controvercy. Clovis at the Battle of Somzingoranother was able to end the Arian's last hope of achieving Institutionalized Religious Respectability and they went underground. Today we know them as the Free Masons.

But I think it was a battle that did not need to be fought. The Two Groups could have found grounds for reconciling both Views. Christ WAS Special: born of the Immaculate Conception, he was Spiritually Pure and was tantamount to being The Second Adam, but this time without the Curse of Sin. Very Special Indeed. But still a Man.

We have always known by the success of the Saints and the Mystics that there is such a thing as Ordinary Men achieving Mystical Identity with God and the Christ Consciousness. It should have been obvious after the first several Major Catholic Saints that the Arians at least had a very good practical point in their favor; as Mr. Battig's arguments tend so did the actual facts on the ground play out. The Catholics and the Arians should have convoked a Meeting and hammered out a reconciliation. It would have been better for everybody. If nobody has noticed, almost every Traditionally Catholic Country in Europe today, and many in Central and South America are politically lead not by Catholic Statesmen and Politicians, but by men who wear Free Mason pins in their lapels. They've gone far out of their way to destroy the Catholic Church. A settlement 16 Centuries ago could have saved us all that.

 

[duendy]

Jesus said, "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" - ( Matt. 5:48 )

WHO is, or are the 'you' that Jesus is talking about?


Jesus spoke to His disciples saying, " --- I have overcome the world." - (John 16:33)
Also Jesus said to John, "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, 'as I also overcame' and sat down with My Father on His throne. - (Rev. 3:21) 'as I also overcame' 'As Jesus overcame'?

WHO is the 'him' that overcomes as Jesus overcame?


Jesus spoke these words, "--- And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one. ---" - ( John 17 )

WHO is, or are the 'they' that may be one just as the Father and Jesus are one?


What I see here is that Jesus is asking us to be perfect as our Father in heaven, to overcome as He overcame, and to be one just as the Father and He are one.

I ask Leo Volont or anyone else, why would Jesus is ask us to be perfect as our Father in heaven, to overcome as He overcame, to be one just as the Father and He are one, and to become The Divine Man as He became if "He was born Divine"?

Peace be with you, Paul

i urge you to explore this question as outside the 'box' [ie, christian theology] as you can.
it needs must you explore paganism, from whence many -if not ALL-the motifs of the Juadic-christian religion were appropriated from

first understand this. there exists absolutely no physical evidence of 'Jesus' being a real person. That should be a clue

Pagans KNEw their mythical god~man character was merely mythical and pointing to deeper understandings of OUR/ ME/ YOU's understanding of lifedeathregeneration

in fact many took the piss out of this new emerging cult which seemed to take it all seriously--that there was an ACTUAL 'son of 'God'

so who originally WAs the pagan god~man?

he was son, not of 'God', but of GODDESS. he was Nature, he was Sun, he was Ecstatic inspiration, he was the PLANT that INSPIRED ecstatic inspiration

what the Alexandrian new Chrestos cult did--from my own understanding. is that is created the idea of a sacramant that came from 'God's seed. are you with me? i am understanding that they -being patriarchally inclined yet STILL aware of hallucinogenic sacraments, actually deified the god~man plant as being 'virgin born (for example the ancinets did not know mushrooms (all, and hallucinogenic) were propigated by spores)....so they assumed it was God's SEED which imbued them with power.....

so this is an important point. i see two strains:
Goddess oriented understnaidng of the sacramants being immanent, and
patriarchal oriented understanding where sacraments become 'God' given form the 'pure spirit'....so the latter has become all transcendental, and this would explain the Christian emphasis of vacating Earth and going 'up' to the 'Father-Gd' in 'heaven'

if none of this makes sense, dont suffer in silence . let me know

 

[battig1370]

Why would Jesus is ask us to be perfect as our Father in heaven, to overcome as He overcame, to be one just as the Father and He are one?

Peace be with you, Paul

 

[battig1370]

Hello Leo Volont,

Can you answer this question please.

Why did Jesus is ask us to be perfect as our Father in heaven, to overcome as He overcame, to be one just as the Father and He are one?

Peace be with you, Paul