The difference between science and religion

Oli
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
to which I can respond, thus they rework their scientific perspective, much like any other scientist

Still doesn't address the comment:

for the better part of a century scientists have been realizing that the physical world is too complex and finely tuned to have come into being by accident.

Two have been named, and shown to be in error.
thus its the nature of scientists to rework their hypothesis
Alexander Flemming is an accident?

Fleming's DISCOVERY was an accident - mouldy bread or something, IIRC.
mouldy bread is an accident?

no I am talking about anything phenomenal

Every thing's phenomenal until it becomes common place...
I am not sure what you are trying to say

i mean phenomenal is the sense of displaying an effect(as opposed to noumenonal, being the cause)
 
thus its the nature of scientists to rework their hypothesis
As in "we were wrong"?

mouldy bread is an accident?
Word games?

I am not sure what you are trying to say
i mean phenomenal is the sense of displaying an effect(as opposed to noumenonal, being the cause)

Back to the original comment:
all those scientists who have been unable to produce experiments in which anything is produced by accident it seems .....
So you're basically saying NOTHING is an accident?
 
Oli“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
thus its the nature of scientists to rework their hypothesis

As in "we were wrong"?
I believe the more common answer is "we were not quite right"

mouldy bread is an accident?

Word games?
by trying to indicate a phenomena as an accident, when all you have are further phenomena to reference, i guess so

I am not sure what you are trying to say
i mean phenomenal is the sense of displaying an effect(as opposed to noumenonal, being the cause)

Back to the original comment:

all those scientists who have been unable to produce experiments in which anything is produced by accident it seems .....

So you're basically saying NOTHING is an accident?
with empiricism you can establish the limits of your knowledge - labeling such limits as "accident" is just another way of saying "I don't know"
 
So basically you're saying nothing is knowable and it's all a waste of time and effort.
 
No
I am saying that empiricism has limits and words like "accident" require knowledge that doesn't have limits

Word games again:
empiricism works in the real world, offer an alternative.
"accident" will do until we learn everything :D
accident also = something unintended: penicillin qualifies on that count, neh?
 
Word games again:
philosophy actually - with a particular focus on logical claims

empiricism works in the real world, offer an alternative.
read the OP and get back to me

"accident" will do until we learn everything :D
thus your use of the word "accident" is not scientific (a scientific equivelant would be "we do not know")

accident also = something unintended: penicillin qualifies on that count, neh?
granted - if you move into the area of "chance" however, you are back in the red
 
philosophy actually - with a particular focus on logical claims
I'm an engineer - if it works, (or can be made to work), it's real.

thus your use of the word "accident" is not scientific (a scientific equivelant would be "we do not know")
Are we talking philosophy, linguistics or science?
The word accident has a meaning, whatever you're speaking.

granted - if you move into the area of "chance" however, you are back in the red
How so?
 
Then your "guess" is just that.
And wrong.

You state that I'm 'wrong' as if it were fact; it brings me back to many scientists who could very well be doing the same... stating things as fact where it may very well not be. For example:

- There are six basic concepts of evolution: Cosmic Evolution, Chemical Evolution, Evolution of stars and planets from gas, Organic Evolution, Macro-evolution, and Micro-evolution. However, only the last one has been observed and can be called science. The first five are believed by faith.

- Lucy, the oldest known ancestor of humans, is 2.9 million years old. However, Richard Leakey found a normal human skull under a layer of rock dated at 212 million years... so most experts now agree that Lucy was only an unusual chimpanzee and not a missing link.

- Fossils. Scientists will state that we can tell the age of fossils since we know the age of the layer of rock where they were found. But, that seems to be circular reasoning. How can they say that the layers are different ages? Petrified trees are often found going through many of the layers. Some are even upside down running through "millions of years" worth of rock.

- We're also told that human embryos have gill slits proving man evolved through the fish stage millions of years ago. But... Ernst Haeckel made up those drawings in 1869 and they were proven to be wrong in 1874, as they were not "gills" but folds of skin. they grow into bones in the ear and glands in the throat.

- And finally... scientists will discuss things like "vestigial organs", like the human tail bone, in order to prove that humans evolved from animals with tails. But, there are nine muscles that attach to the tail bone... it is not "vestigial ". The evolutionist may rebut and say that wales have a vestigial pelvis, proving that they evolved from a land dwelling creature. But, those bones serve as anchor points for muscles. Without them, wales cannot reproduce. They have nothing to do with walking on land. Even if they were ""vestigial organs", isn't losing something the opposite of evolution?

My point is that evolution isn't any more fact than creationism is. I do consider myself a Christian, and while I'm not a Bible thumper by any means, the theory of evolution does remind me of a particular verse:

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" - Romans 1:22
 
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My point is that evolution isn't any more fact than creationism is. I do consider myself a Christian, and while I'm not a Bible thumper by any means, the theory of evolution does remind me of a particular verse:

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools" - Romans 1:22

How about this. Evolution is the method by which God created the universe,it's just that we don't have all the facts on how evolution works.
;)
 
Oli
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
philosophy actually - with a particular focus on logical claims

I'm an engineer - if it works, (or can be made to work), it's real.
that's ok
you only get into philosophical difficulty when you call upon your engineering foundations to make positive statements about the non existence of things beyond your sense perception (eg - god, soul, transcendence, etc)

thus your use of the word "accident" is not scientific (a scientific equivelant would be "we do not know")

Are we talking philosophy, linguistics or science?
science does have a philosophy (anything that makes claims to things being factual or false does too)
and science, like all philosophical systems, expresses itself through language ... so its not clear how these three things, science, philosophy and linguistics, can be analyzed independently

The word accident has a meaning, whatever you're speaking.
certainly - that's what we are discussing at the moment

granted - if you move into the area of "chance" however, you are back in the red

How so?
to say something is unintended, it simply states that your powers of perception or activity didn't accommodate for the result (in other words its a phenomenal claim - "from my perspective, I can't see the cause" )

to say that something is chance, it indicates that there is ultimately no governing forces in action (in other words its a noumenal claim - "from my perspective I can assert that there is no cause")

and once again, claims of noumena require to have the "complete picture", something empiricism struggles with
 
Theist:
God is onmipotent, omnipresent, it always was and always will be, it is all there is; it cannot be destroyed, it takes infinite forms.

Scientist:
Energy is onmipotent, omnipresent, it always was and always will be, it is all there is; it cannot be destroyed, it takes infinite forms.
 
that's ok
you only get into philosophical difficulty when you call upon your engineering foundations to make positive statements about the non existence of things beyond your sense perception (eg - god, soul, transcendence, etc)
Yup, I can see that.

science does have a philosophy (anything that makes claims to things being factual or false does too)
and science, like all philosophical systems, expresses itself through language ... so its not clear how these three things, science, philosophy and linguistics, can be analyzed independently
Again, I can see that.
No disagreement yet.

to say something is unintended, it simply states that your powers of perception or activity didn't accommodate for the result (in other words its a phenomenal claim - "from my perspective, I can't see the cause" )
Agreed.

to say that something is chance, it indicates that there is ultimately no governing forces in action (in other words its a noumenal claim - "from my perspective I can assert that there is no cause")
Here I'm not in agreement:
The definition I've used mostly is roughly
The unknown and unpredictable element in happenings that seems to have no assignable cause.
Not an assertion that there isn't a cause.
What did I miss and where?

and once again, claims of noumena require to have the "complete picture", something empiricism struggles with
Okay (noumena is a relatively unused word in my vocabulary - but on looking it up it equates (with some debate apparently) to ding an sich).
Again, agreed.
 
Here I'm not in agreement:
The definition I've used mostly is roughly

Not an assertion that there isn't a cause.
What did I miss and where?

I skimmed through the thread and i can't locate where you used that
(I thought the term cropped up from the "physical world and accident" post at the bottom of the page)
 
Religion is base entirely on assumptions, science quotes theory when it cant prove something, now religious people tell me what other basis other than assumptions makes you believe in supernatural mumbo jumbo?

Religion - search for the absolute truth
Science - search for the naturalistic truth

The difference? Religion seeks the truth through every means, including personal experience, science seeks the truth ONLY through empricism, naturalism...come on Dug T tell me can you give me an example of what would be empirical evidence of the supernatural? Exactly...
 
I see no evidence that religious cults like those of Christianity or Islam seek truth. There is, however, an abundance of evidence that followers of these cults believe they've already found it. There is very little evidence that shows that what they believe to be true actually is, though.

Science - seeks truth. Natural truth is all there is.
Religion - seeks to protect perceived truths already arrived at from revision or change.

The difference? Religion has pre-conceived notions such that adherents are reluctant to acknowledge any data that doesn't agree with them -including experience since experiences that aren't congruent to these notions (a.k.a. superstitions) are ignored;

Science seeks truth through observation and experience of the natural universe.

There is no empirical evidence for the supernatural (unless you count the superstitious and deluded believers of things like fairies, tarot, esp, gods, miracles, etc. But in this endeavor, you're counting instances of belief and not actual instances of supernatural occurrences). That's why there is no good reason to accept that it actually exists.
 
- There are six basic concepts of evolution: Cosmic Evolution, Chemical Evolution, Evolution of stars and planets from gas, Organic Evolution, Macro-evolution, and Micro-evolution. However, only the last one has been observed and can be called science. The first five are believed by faith.

I don't know of any text or curriculum that organizes these "six basic concepts of evolution" in the manner you have. I'd be interested to know where you adapted this context from. Regardless, very few scientists actually differentiate macro/micro evolution, particularly in the context you intend. And the other evolutionary concepts you've mentioned are, indeed, believed by faith, but it certainly isn't the sort of "faith" that those deluded by the superstitions of religion might have. The kind of "faith" that informs belief in a scientific concept is akin to the "faith" I might have that the sun will rise tomorrow at a given time; or the "faith" I might have that if I step of the roof of my home I stand a good chance of injury or death. This kind of faith is grounded in evidence -evidence that is freely available to those willing to learn. Its unfortunate that there are so many who willingly ignore such opportunities for gaining knowledge and exploring the true wonders of the universe in favor of sticking to superstitions that originated in one of the darkest periods of human knowledge and understanding.

- Lucy, the oldest known ancestor of humans, is 2.9 million years old. However, Richard Leakey found a normal human skull under a layer of rock dated at 212 million years... so most experts now agree that Lucy was only an unusual chimpanzee and not a missing link.

Completely and utterly false. If you are going to make claims of such ignorance, at least do us the courtesy of attempting to cite some source. Lucy is *not* the oldest known ancestor of humans -there are far older species than Australopithecus afarensis known to paleoanthropologists. There is no out of place human skull from 212 million old strata. And no one that is considered an expert in the field of paleoanthropology considers afarensis to be "an unusual chimpanzee and not a missing link." The latter part of that claim is misleading to say the least. Afarensis is a link that is certainly not "missing."
- Fossils. Scientists will state that we can tell the age of fossils since we know the age of the layer of rock where they were found. But, that seems to be circular reasoning. How can they say that the layers are different ages? Petrified trees are often found going through many of the layers. Some are even upside down running through "millions of years" worth of rock.

This is another assumption that contains so many factual errors and demonstrates an ignorance of geology more than it shows any enlightened perspective on the problems of science. Indeed, it may well be out of the scope of this thread to give a class on dating techniques, stratigraphy, and geology in general. However, I would say that this information is readily and freely available to anyone who genuinely seeks an education and If you are genuinely interested I could provide a brief bibliography that should be available in any good library, particularly if Inter Library Loan is taken advantage of. Education is free to those that truly want it. But suffice to say that there are many complimentary methods of establishing chronologies of geologic strata -some of which involve dating methods like Ar-Ar, K-Ar, paleomagnetic dating, dendrochronology, varves, pollen analysis, etc., etc. With regard to the oft cited yet never understood notion of "petrified trees" penetrating "millions of years worth of rock," one of several rational explanations involves intrusions. Others involve tectonic movements. And so on. Not a single out of place petrified tree has ever been shown to exist that didn't have a reasonable, plausible and parsimonious explanation.

- We're also told that human embryos have gill slits proving man evolved through the fish stage millions of years ago. But... Ernst Haeckel made up those drawings in 1869 and they were proven to be wrong in 1874, as they were not "gills" but folds of skin. they grow into bones in the ear and glands in the throat.

Who says this. Please cite a reference that is of the 21st century. The fact that a talented illustrator of the 19th century created drawings that were still used in the 20th by some textbooks has little bearing on what evolutionary scientists actually say about human embryonic development. Please cite a primary source (not some high school text book) that says what you are claiming above.

My point is that evolution isn't any more fact than creationism is.

Actually, your point comes across quite clear. It isn't what you say above, however. The point you've made is that you truly don't know much about evolution that you didn't read in some anti-science source. Many of the things you state above are straight out of creationist propaganda and have little bearing on what is actually known in the sciences they cover.

The moral of this is: if you're going to criticize science, it might be advantageous to educate yourself in it. That accomplished, you'll find that science welcomes criticism that is valid. But the criticism above is invalid. Thus, unwelcome.
 
The moral of this is: if you're going to criticize science, it might be advantageous to educate yourself in it. That accomplished, you'll find that science welcomes criticism that is valid. But the criticism above is invalid. Thus, unwelcome.


Evidence for God has has been presented over and over again on these forums and elsewhere. But like most non-believers, just because the evidence doesn't fit into the paradigm of your own world view, you dismiss it. :shrug:
 
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