the devil's paradox

[cosmictraveler]

The belief in spirits and demons is prevalent in every culture i have heard of. shamanistic practices in African, India, island peoples, and south and north America all point to the spirit world and demons. Many of these same cultures believe there is a king of the demons, they may have different names for their king of the demons but most have the same concept.

Many Native Americans didn't have "demons" , the Chinese didn't, the Inuit didn't as well as many others so are they not part of the worlds cultures? You make a blanket statement about "everyone" then just happen to leave out millions of people who don't have any such superstitions why is that? :shrug: Remember that before religions were invented by humans there weren't any either. It wasn't until after religions were established that the demons and devil were invented, interesting isn't it how that's so closely related.

 

[Greatest I am]

if you reached a conclusion that the devil doesn't exist, how do you know the devil didn't make/help you reach that conclusion?

is there a philosophical solution? even within the religious domain?

of course here we're assuming the devil has the ability to partially sabotoge your thoughts, or be a little voice in your head egging you this way or that. and it's in his benefit you don't believe in him.

I just posted this as an O P and thought it would fit here as well.

Hell is theologically impossible if God is omnipotent.
Definition of omnipotent. ----- Having virtually unlimited authority or influence.
Definition of influence. ---- The act or power of producing an effect without apparent exertion of force or direct exercise of command. The power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways: sway. IOW, unlimited powers of persuasion.
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2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
----------------------------------------------------

When we die, believers believe that we will face a God who is said to have infinite persuasive powers and influence on the conditions of our consciousness. This power would overwhelm any reluctance for any non-believers who were not sure of God’s existence before death. For the first time, this is when full disclosure answers all questions that have prevented non-believers from believing in God.

All then would come to repentance and be saved.

Given this theology, hell would become a construct without purpose or inhabitants.

That would make Bishop Spong correct in his view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Why then would the Church invent the concept of hell?

By doing so, the Church ignores God’s omnipotence and causes God to back slide from his position of master of all time and space, to the master of just some. He would not be master of those in hell. It can be argued that God could destroy those souls but that just makes him a destroyer and not master which is his ultimate goal or intent for all souls.

Do you recognize the huge power of God’s persuasive powers that would negate or deal with any objection that the non-believer would have for his non-belief?

Do you recognize that none would choose hell and that it is therefore not required and that God would not cause his back slide by creating it?

Regards
DL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE_TWhzG-p0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan#Judaism

 

[Aqueous Id]

if you reached a conclusion that the devil doesn't exist, how do you know the devil didn't make/help you reach that conclusion?

is there a philosophical solution? even within the religious domain?

of course here we're assuming the devil has the ability to partially sabotoge your thoughts, or be a little voice in your head egging you this way or that. and it's in his benefit you don't believe in him.

If, as Sartre said, “Hell is other people”, then we might infer that the Devil is any ringleader of hellions. I don’t deny that such a devil exists.

I deny that the devil of mythology exists, but since the creature is artificial, it can’t infiltrate my mind. So I’m OK in my definition.

For a person who believes in a classical devil, I would note that the OP poses another kind of paradox:

Suppose all the religious ideas that place you in conflict with worldly ideas--about the cosmos, the origin of life, and even the origin of your own religion—were infused into your thinking by the devil, who is deceiving you to shun modern writings—science, for example—so that you will be deprived of receiving their divine inspiration?

That would be truly diabolical.

 

[kx000]

If, as Sartre said, “Hell is other people”, then we might infer that the Devil is any ringleader of hellions. I don’t deny that such a devil exists.

This devil would be the anti-christ, king of hell, and opposed to Christ. This man will love what he does. The anti-christ is a position assumed by God to be the unquestioned king, and ultimate punisher of hell. He would be loyal to any Christ, or God himself. Evil kills evil, but hate kills what it doesn't like. What does the world hate? Evil.

I deny that the devil of mythology exists, but since the creature is artificial, it can’t infiltrate my mind. So I’m OK in my definition.

The devil you speak is the archangel Lucifer, no? Lucifer is the archangel of knowledge, yea he's had you infiltrated before your great grandfather was even.... Never mind, he had you infiltrated since he rebelled, if such a thing occurred. In revelation a church of God (followers of one of the Seven spirits) is sitting in Satans seat. Why is it still his seat?

Suppose all the religious ideas that place you in conflict with worldly ideas--about the cosmos, the origin of life, and even the origin of your own religion—were infused into your thinking by the devil, who is deceiving you to shun modern writings—science, for example—so that you will be deprived of receiving their divine inspiration?

Breakdown on Lucifer to the devil.

-Lucifer is archangel, after faith, hope, and science. Angel of knowledge itself.
-Lucifer rebels. What does he know? He is knowledge, so theoretically he has reason. Either, he knows the ending to be bad and is writing it, or he has knowledge that lying is the only way to succeed, I know that to be false, must be the first.
-Lucifer is cast to earth and incarnates a snake and lives for 900 years. When he dies God calls the sons to line up, he is among them. He is cast down to earth to be Satan the deceiver.
-Satan deceives the whole world and is the devil.

 

[Big Chiller]

I deny that the devil of mythology exists, but since the creature is artificial, it can’t infiltrate my mind. So I’m OK in my definition.

It's true that the devil can't infiltrate the mind but can still gradually have an effect from cumulative whispers and temptations.

For a person who believes in a classical devil, I would note that the OP poses another kind of paradox:

Suppose all the religious ideas that place you in conflict with worldly ideas--about the cosmos, the origin of life, and even the origin of your own religion—were infused into your thinking by the devil, who is deceiving you to shun modern writings—science, for example—so that you will be deprived of receiving their divine inspiration?

That would be truly diabolical.

So the devil now has unlimited power to influence and science, modern writings are divine inspiration?

Only in a Universe where one has to "get it right" in this one lifetime, or suffer forever in eternal damnation.

If God's judgement is infallible then God retains omniscience and omnipotence in this case, however I wonder if your argument is valid.

 

[Stryder]

Christianity is often portrayed as a Monotheism in the sense that there is only one god, however in the religion the devil entity is often also mentioned making the religion a duo-theism, unless of course both entities are one in the same.

How could one entity be written to be "As pure as the driven snow" if not for having something to contrast against, in other words without something to represent absolute evil their religion would have suffered from desensitisation from lacking contrast.

This is further played out in their spectrum by having "Miracles" of positive outcomes being suggested to be down to their god or good like entity, while defiling negative occurance's are often portrayed to be by the opposition. (Obviously this isn't always true, after all what of plagues, famine and locusts?)

Thankfully though this is just theological folly meant for the light-weighted Phd's to profess and ponder over, although unfortunately "believers" still exist and revel in misinterpretations of meaning.

 

[AlexG]

if you reached a conclusion that the devil doesn't exist, how do you know the devil didn't make/help you reach that conclusion?

If he did, he wins.

 

[Greatest I am]

If he did, he wins.

If scripture is correct and as God says, Satan has the power to deceive the whole world, then either God is wrong or Satan was always intended to win.

Catch 22 for you.

One has to wonder why a God would give dominion of earth and man, to someone he also gave the ability to deceive.

That is shooting himself in the foot.

Regards
DL

 

[Pincho Paxton]

if you reached a conclusion that the devil doesn't exist, how do you know the devil didn't make/help you reach that conclusion?

is there a philosophical solution? even within the religious domain?

of course here we're assuming the devil has the ability to partially sabotoge your thoughts, or be a little voice in your head egging you this way or that. and it's in his benefit you don't believe in him.

To reach a conclusion you need evidence of some sort. To 'not' exist is to reach no evidence. To be aided in some sort of thinking requires evidence also. To have no evidence of the aid in your thinking, to have no evidence in the Devil.

no+no+no = 0

The thread = 0.

 

[gmilam]

if you reached a conclusion that the devil doesn't exist, how do you know the devil didn't make/help you reach that conclusion?

is there a philosophical solution? even within the religious domain?

of course here we're assuming the devil has the ability to partially sabotoge your thoughts, or be a little voice in your head egging you this way or that. and it's in his benefit you don't believe in him.

In that case - all knowledge is suspect and not to be relied on.

 

[Adstar]

If scripture is correct and as God says, Satan has the power to deceive the whole world, then either God is wrong or Satan was always intended to win.

Catch 22 for you.

One has to wonder why a God would give dominion of earth and man, to someone he also gave the ability to deceive.

That is shooting himself in the foot.

Regards
DL

Matthew 24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The " if " is in scripture for a reason. Those guarded by the Holy Spirit will not be deceived.

God allows satan to deceive those who reject the love of His truth. So to do that God must allow satan to be very deceiving. But the great deception is when satan for a short time will be given powers of deception that will enable him to deceive all the world, even those who are learned and religious in the Bible, but not guarded by the Holy Spirit.

Satan acts as an attractant to all people who reject the will of God. He refines the fence sitters and the outwardly religious from the truth believers.

Eternity is not a democracy. It is an absolute Monarchy. Satan does not win by deceiving the majority. So even if the end times are like the times of Noah with only a handful of believers, that 5 will have eternity with God and the 5 billon rejectors will not.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Greatest I am]

Matthew 24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The " if " is in scripture for a reason. Those guarded by the Holy Spirit will not be deceived.

God allows satan to deceive those who reject the love of His truth. So to do that God must allow satan to be very deceiving. But the great deception is when satan for a short time will be given powers of deception that will enable him to deceive all the world, even those who are learned and religious in the Bible, but not guarded by the Holy Spirit.

Satan acts as an attractant to all people who reject the will of God. He refines the fence sitters and the outwardly religious from the truth believers.

Eternity is not a democracy. It is an absolute Monarchy. Satan does not win by deceiving the majority. So even if the end times are like the times of Noah with only a handful of believers, that 5 will have eternity with God and the 5 billon rejectors will not.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I guess that your "if" has more veracity than my "all".

I will give you this link to listen to but from what you say, you have already sold your soul to Satan. What you need to hear is at about the 6 min mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0kdxgJB9is

Any man who would follow some alien invisible absentee God who can only save 5 out of billions is not cut from the same cloth as Jesus. You are a traitor to your own kind for a security blanket God that will appease all of your fears of losing an immortality that is a delusion.

Regards
DL

 

[kx000]

Matthew 24
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The if is reference to the elect. It is saying false prophets will arise, and if possible they will even deceive the elect.

The " if " is in scripture for a reason. Those guarded by the Holy Spirit will not be deceived.

Those unable to be deceived will not be deceived. God will not protect you from anything ever, past in the end of time taking every evil thing out of existence once and for all...

God allows satan to deceive those who reject the love of His truth.

Satan deceives all that he can.

So to do that God must allow satan to be very deceiving.

Imo, no. The devil rebelled against God because he hated man, and he hated the idea of living as equals with rapist, and thief's, and especially liars. Just because one tells a lie, doesn't necessarily make him a liar.

Eternity is not a democracy. It is an absolute Monarchy. Satan does not win by deceiving the majority. So even if the end times are like the times of Noah with only a handful of believers, that 5 will have eternity with God and the 5 billon rejectors will not.

the devil is a faithful. If Lucifer's whole rebellion was about man being a terrible awful idea, and in the end God has to burn 1/3 of us, In the "last hour" what happens when Lucifer looks to God and says two simple words, "Im sorry?" Did the devil not just prove to be right to say man was wrong, and if he is sorry for deceiving the whole world will he not be accepted into heaven only to regain his title archangel, and given name Lucifer, knowledge of God? Just because one rejects the notion of God doesn't make them hell bound, in fact, they could be wise, nobel men who will sit high on the throne...

 

[Adstar]

I guess that your "if" has more veracity than my "all".

I will give you this link to listen to but from what you say, you have already sold your soul to Satan. What you need to hear is at about the 6 min mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0kdxgJB9is

Any man who would follow some alien invisible absentee God who can only save 5 out of billions is not cut from the same cloth as Jesus. You are a traitor to your own kind for a security blanket God that will appease all of your fears of losing an immortality that is a delusion.

Regards
DL

Watched the video from 5.55 min to the end. Heard nothing significant that would change anything i believe.

Your conclusion is also weird. Once again God has not failed. Everyone who rejects Him will not be with Him in eternity. They choose their way.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[scorpius]

if you reached a conclusion that the devil doesn't exist, how do you know the devil didn't make/help you reach that conclusion?

is there a philosophical solution? even within the religious domain?

of course here we're assuming the devil has the ability to partially sabotoge your thoughts, or be a little voice in your head egging you this way or that. and it's in his benefit you don't believe in him.

you know what happens when you ASSume!

Ill answer your question as soon you prove devil exists

 

[Adstar]

Many Native Americans didn't have "demons" , the Chinese didn't, the Inuit didn't as well as many others so are they not part of the worlds cultures? You make a blanket statement about "everyone" then just happen to leave out millions of people who don't have any such superstitions why is that? :shrug: Remember that before religions were invented by humans there weren't any either. It wasn't until after religions were established that the demons and devil were invented, interesting isn't it how that's so closely related.

All these cultures believed in spirits and the spirit world. Just because they never called their spirits Demons means nothing. Demons are spirits.

Christians and The Torah declare that all spirits that are not from God are Demons. Shaman practices of allowing themselves to be taken over by spirits in their trance like states have been happening for thousands of years.

Unbelievable that you would be so uninformed as to oppose what i said.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days