the "Devil" and the "Enemy"

D

duendy

Registered Senior Member
what does the 'Devil' MEAN for both religionists and athiests?

i don't just mean his mythical status, but WHY a creation like the Devil should have arisen in Christianity at all.

and also taking into account the war on terrorism, where the 'Enemy' is....? is that stretgy connected with the earlier creation of the N.T 'enemy', the Devil? what do you think
 
itopal: This is the dual nature within everone; it is never without.

Like when holding a baby bird in your hands and you wonder at is fragile beautiful nature; and simultaneously you consider if squezzing your hands together would a kill it; and you don't respond to the latter; that which is always within (this half-devil like nature).
*************
M*W: Gosh, itopal, I've had many baby birds hatch in my chimney, and I have never ever had the thought to kill them! I wait for them to come out of my chimney, and I gently pick them up, show them to my grandchildren, let them hold them, and let them fly free! I cannot imagine squeezing one of them to death! On the other hand, when I lived in Europe, many baby birds were kicked out of their nests. I tried to capture and save them, but I failed. I went to the library to learn about baby birds, but I guess I should have left their demise to nature, itself, but I just cannot see interfering with nature was a bad thing. Perhaps the little birds thought I was satan. Whatever we do in nature affects us as a whole.
 
itopal said:
This is the dual nature within everone; it is never without.

Like when holding a baby bird in your hands and you wonder at is fragile beautiful nature;
and simultaneously you consider if squezzing your hands together would a kill it; and you don't respond to the latter; that which is always within (this half-devil like nature).
Click to expand...

d___yes. i know what you mean. sometimes, even in moments of gentleness, you can feel the potential for not-that. there's also that saying 'i could hug you to death' that in a way is saying a similar thing. that the very act of loving someone could kill them

so yo are suggesting that that potential has been the reason for the creation of the Devil?
 
Well amusing to note, but the devil can't really be considered as the 'enemy'. The only thing he's really been responsible for is giving mankind knowledge.

Who drowned all men, women, children, animals? Wasn't the devil
Who closed womens wombs, demanded sacrifices, caused plagues, killed his own people if they dared complain etc etc etc...

The real 'enemy' is quite apparent, and he never had a problem showing it.
 
The concept of a devil is a natural consequence of defining an ultimate good. The human mind has little problem speculating about an opposite.

Neither gods or devils exist of course - but such inventions do go to the heart of the human search for moral definitions. Having supernatuarl forces at work helps people excuse their actions and need to take responsibility. E.g. it wasn't me that did that bad thing - the devil made me do it.
 
cris said:
E.g. it wasn't me that did that bad thing - the devil made me do it.
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and dont the Gawd TV lot, just love that
"jesue, take this young man(serial killer), to your bosom, a teach him the ways of the righteous, for he has seen the light, praise the lawd."
 
Snakelord’s comments are upon the mythical
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Certainly. But while they are mythical to you and I, there are those that consider it an absolute reality. These people do not seem to have the ability to judge on one side, and then the complete ability to judge on the other, (based upon personal wants). They will accuse the world of evils - the devil being the fall guy for it, but then happily excuse the greater 'evil' as long as it's not personally detrimental.

Duendy asked why the devil would have arisen in christianity, when the answer would seemingly be to not allow others the same excuses they use. One commits atrocity and it's evil, the other does the same and it's "gods will". It's all politics.

You say something similar in your post:

when what is good is seen as opposition (or attack) to an ideology and its power-base; and therefore is deemed the “enemy” and the “devil”
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Exactly, while excusing themselves when they do the same.
 
Devil doesn't exist as we think. Devil is someone who we think is good!
 
Qorl said:
Devil doesn't exist as we think. Devil is someone who we think is good!
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Qorl,

every promise / prediction / assertion you have made on the forum is
utter B.S. (I would provide links to previous threads if these events
cannot be remembered). As reality has contradicted you, maybe it's
time to wake up and realize that you are not a Jesus reincarnation.
 
duendy said:
what does the 'Devil' MEAN for both religionists and athiests?

i don't just mean his mythical status, but WHY a creation like the Devil should have arisen in Christianity at all.

and also taking into account the war on terrorism, where the 'Enemy' is....? is that stretgy connected with the earlier creation of the N.T 'enemy', the Devil? what do you think
Click to expand...

It's a fantasy character from various religions. It's also a great excuse
of not being accountable for personal actions that violate a values system.
 
There are no value systems without God--"all things are permitted."

As T.S. Eliot told his liberal friends

"The term 'democracy'...does not contain enough positive content to stand alone against the forces that you dislike -it can easily be transformed by them. If you will not have God (and He is a jealous God) you should pay your respects to Hitler or Stalin."
 
Muhlenberg said:
There are no value systems without God--"all things are permitted."
Click to expand...

Sure there are. A person can try to live by any values they find attractive.
'God' is not necessary.
 
I agree. People do it all the time. Lots of gnostic pseduo-religions around--objectivism, communism, fascism, utilitarianism, social Darwinism and various mixtures of each or all have been the most widespread.
 
Crunchy Cat said:
Sure there are. A person can try to live by any values they find attractive.
'God' is not necessary.
Click to expand...

Example, my wife values 'expectations'. She wants to ensure that everyone
always knows what's happening next and when its going to happen.

I value language that avoids 'accusation' and 'heavy obligation'. I can turn
"Your program has a memory leak" (accusation) into "The program appears
to be allocating memory and not freeing it up". I can turn "You need to
press CTRL-ALT-DEL" (heavy obligation) into "CTRL-ALT-DEL can be pressed
to restart the system".

My friend values finding common ground. While others are focusing on
differences, he focuses on finding similarities.

'God' is not part of any of these values.
 
Muhlenberg said:
I agree. People do it all the time. Lots of gnostic pseduo-religions around--objectivism, communism, fascism, utilitarianism, social Darwinism and various mixtures of each or all have been the most widespread.
Click to expand...

My bad :). I mis-interpreted the original statements as a disagreement.
 
Not really. All the examples I used were on the macro level. And they have all been vicious in application. You are, I believe, speaking on an individual basis--and those values you cite are good or benign. So we were talking about difference things.

All societies without theistic value systems fail and fail in very unpleasant ways. So do some, only some, with theistic value systems.

One need not believe in the faith of a theistic culture but simply accept and enjoy the benefits that faith provides.Ben Franklin said roughly the same when he advised Thomas Paine to burn "The Age of Reason" rather than publish it.

Give you two examples: Turkey and India--my favorite countries outside my own. I'm not a Muslim nor a Hindu. But I sure liked living in those cultures and I would never suggest they ditch their faith for moral relativism, marxism or another secular pseudo-religion. Countries which do that degenerate or are taken over by another faith.

Dutch Cardinal Adrianis Simonis recently commented on the wave of violence by and against Muslims in his country:

"Nowadays political leaders ask whether the Muslims will accept our values . . .I ask, what values are those? Gay marriage? Euthanasia?"
 
Muhlenberg said:
Not really. All the examples I used were on the macro level. And they have all been vicious in application. You are, I believe, speaking on an individual basis--and those values you cite are good or benign. So we were talking about difference things.

All societies without theistic value systems fail and fail in very unpleasant ways. So do some, only some, with theistic value systems.

One need not believe in the faith of a theistic culture but simply accept and enjoy the benefits that faith provides.Ben Franklin said roughly the same when he advised Thomas Paine to burn "The Age of Reason" rather than publish it.

Give you two examples: Turkey and India--my favorite countries outside my own. I'm not a Muslim nor a Hindu. But I sure liked living in those cultures and I would never suggest they ditch their faith for moral relativism, marxism or another secular pseudo-religion. Countries which do that degenerate or are taken over by another faith.

Dutch Cardinal Adrianis Simonis recently commented on the wave of violence by and against Muslims in his country:

"Nowadays political leaders ask whether the Muslims will accept our values . . .I ask, what values are those? Gay marriage? Euthanasia?"
Click to expand...

I would have to ask what constitutes a society failing? We can talk about
Macro values if desired. 'The persuit of life, liberty, and happiness' is the
Macro value of the U.S. These are human wants and needs (no 'God'
required).
 
Citing so-called irreligious ideologies, like communism and arguing from there that religion -aswe knows it-is THE way is not thought out.
Take Stalinist Russia. whose huge face did we see? As is with most communist and fascit dictator states. HUGE statues, etc. and a cntralized power structure

In other words they are a REACYION to psuedo-religion that is i believe being termed here religion, or spirituality.

But all of those beliefs stem from patriarchy!

Of the beliefs in a fundamental separation between 'evil' and 'good'. For example, Christianity indoctrinated the belief in absolute dualism, so the heretic could be severely punished and murdered, being identified with the 'Devil'.
And with Communism, if an individual dissented from the ideology thay could be idagnosed 'mentally ill' and confined to a mental hospital and forcibly
drugged.

So both worldviews hold to an idea of scapegoating that which conflicts with the overall world view

In our 'secular' paradigm one can also be 'diagnosed' 'mentally ill' and in some cases also forcibly incarcerated

What's the 'Devil' and the 'Enemy' got to do with all of that do you think
 
i personally feel this subjec's really important to explore, though its droppin down the charts...so what's new. isn't all the good shit out of the charts?...hehe. no offensive to muber ONE etc

i am reminded of one of the first replies of this thread. about holding a little bird in the hand. and the thought comes, i could esily just crush this.
same it is with a tiny insect. just a whim of a mood and it can be crushed out of existence (i dont do that mind)

so it's lik saying we have two aspects AND. you know, have you heard of the 'excluded middle'......this is form Aristotelian losic which demands an 'either/or' reponse. such logic can't entertain 'both/AND'...(checkout 'transdisciplinarity' at google for more of an in-depth research about this)

pagan peoples knew about this ambiguity, and spirits were thought also to be ambiguous like us, depending on mood, circumstance and nature, and respect. like for example, if someone seriously pisses you off, what happenes? you get pissed off to. ie., you get dissed. so likewise with the spirit of the place....andf so on

what the Christians did was to wholly separate this good and bad, so we have the all-good 'God' and the all-bad 'Devil'. looked at psychologically, this Devil is like God's Shadow. and thus -considering it's 'we' whove made this myth, is OUR Shadow. in other words we've denied our bad side, or the side the all-gooders SAY is bad

hey. isn't it strange that not a ONE religionist visited this thread....must be because the 'Devil' is here...hehe
 
The figures killed until fairly recently..post 1500 maybe...are meaningless.

If you want to spam the forum with copy and paste, at least take the time to eliminate the more absurd items in the list.

Victims of tsunamis are not murdered.

Btw...I got myself a dictionary. Thanks for looking it up but I know what words mean (more so than dictionaries as they have limited space and are often dated).
 
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