The Concept of Forgiveness

[TruthSeeker]

tiassa,

*sight
I write a huge message and the thing erases everything...

Repentence involves the act of turning away from sin, something which is not entirely possible for a human being, as per God's will.

No, this is possible through Jesus:

Ephesians 4:20-24
"20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth. "

And we could always disqualify this kind of thinking, but that kind of thinking is amazingly prevalent.

Unfortunatly, yes.

- God's love is "earned". God does not "love" his creations, which he wills to a dependent state. But God does "reward" obedience with "love", and all else is cast aside.

That is totally wrong. God gave us the gift of eternal life. You don't need to earn it, it is yours, as long as you accept it:

Romans 6:23
"23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

Imagine this situation:
We are flying in an airplane. The airplane is out of fuel and will soon going to crash.
I say to you: "The airplane will crash. Take this parachute, it is my gift to you."
You say: "I don't believe in you. I don't accept your gift."
The airplane crashes and you die. Whose fault is? Mine? Or yours?

If you say: "Ok, I believe you, I accept your gift."
You jump and you get saved. You got saved because I gave you my gift, my own parachute and you accepted it.

In the same way, if God tells you through me:
"Please, accepet my gift of eternal life."
And you say: "Nah... I don't believe you."
You die and go to Hell. Whose fault is? Mine? God's? Or yours? Certainly not God's. If you don't accept His gift, it is your own choice.

And if you say: "Sure. I believe you. I receive the gift of eternal life."
Then, you are saved and go to Heaven.

Always remember that heaven and hell are not only after life, but also during life. And hell is the mere abscence of God.

The problem, Nelson, is that "love" means different things to different people.

I'm writting an essay about the differences between God's Love and the "love" of this world to my pastor. After I finish it, I will post it in a new thread.

The King James Bible is grossly inaccurate. Its language is modernized in terms of what was modern for its day. And in discussing the advent of KJV, the Chick tract can do nothing but call Catholics "Satanic". And of course, the Catholics lived up to the role, persecuting the KJV crowd. But here's the thing: Imagine that you are a superstitious, nearly-primitive Christian facing the spectre of a new translation of the Bible for the masses that is, in fact, innacurate. Now consider Matthew 25 (above): If you fail to correct your brethren led astray? And, of course, according to the primitive ideals of religions, killing people seems the thing to do. But that's just it--the persecutions were, by the rhetoric, acts of love.

Romans 13:8
"8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. "

Can you kill someone that you Love? Can you hurt someone that you Love?

Now, you and I might agree that there's nothing loving about persecution, but we hear the same thing from various people about raising their children. To me, it's wrong to hit a child, period. To others, I don't love my daughter enough if I'm not willing to smack her around from time to time. There is a point in Christian faith when love fails: Will the Devil be redeemed?

The devil can't be redeemed. It was his own choice. It is his own nature, the nature he chose to have. Anything that is apart from God's Love cannot be with God. Simple as that.

 

[Tiassa]

Then Love fails

The devil can't be redeemed. It was his own choice. It is his own nature, the nature he chose to have. Anything that is apart from God's Love cannot be with God. Simple as that.

Then love fails.

Simple as that.

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[Tiassa]

Other matters

We are flying in an airplane. The airplane is out of fuel and will soon going to crash.
I say to you: "The airplane will crash. Take this parachute, it is my gift to you."
You say: "I don't believe in you. I don't accept your gift."
The airplane crashes and you die. Whose fault is? Mine? Or yours?

If you say: "Ok, I believe you, I accept your gift."
You jump and you get saved. You got saved because I gave you my gift, my own parachute and you accepted it.

So imagine this:

I'm flying in a plane. It is running out of fuel and will soon crash.

A voice in my head says, "The airplane will crash. Take this parachute. It is my gift to you."

I look around, but when I took off, I was the only person on the plane.

"Where are you? Where is the parachute?"

And the voice says, "Take this parachute. It is my gift to you."

And I look around, asking, "Where are you?"

And right about the time the plane smashes into the ground, my psychiatrist faxes to my house the evaluation of a PET scan that recently showed unusual brain activity suggesting schizophrenia.

The difference between your airplane example and God is that when you are there standing in front of me putting the parachute into my hands, there is no question that you are there putting the parachute into my hands.

In the meantime, what happens when the schizophrenic snaps to and realizes that he never was on an airplane and never was in any danger?

Life is. As the dervish pointed out to the traveller: "Of course I was aware that there was only a plank of wood between me and destruction. But that is more (protection) than most days."

Do you realize that if God itself appeared before everybody and said, "Now do you believe? Here's the easy way out," that there would be no question?

By your example, Nelson, the only issue of faith is whether or not the parachute is correctly packed.

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[Nehushta]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Luke 6:37
"37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. "

Much better. I just wish that Christians could remember this one.

Colossians 3:12-14
"12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;
13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.
14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. "

Again, I believe that one of Paul's chief aims with this epistle was to admonish Christians to separate themselves from the Gentiles so that they would not become corrupted by their ways. Paul's notion of the "perfect bond of unity" did not include unity with non-Christians.

And, of course, you can just say that it is written "Love one another" and "Love your enemies".

But then it is also written that a man should hate his family members if he wishes to be a disciple of Christ (see Luke 14:26). Such inconsistency...

You can see it that way, but the above ones are not. About those scriptures that seem to condemn, it is important to meditate on them and see wheter it is God condemning people or people condeming themselves. Remember that there is a whole lot of people in this world that feel guilty and/or repented for something that they did in the past.

It seems to me that a major theme of the bible is to make people feel guilty for practically every thought and deed that is natural to mankind. But as for who will do the condemning, judge for yourself:

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

A crucial thing to learn about Christianity is that the kingdom of heavens and hell are not just out there when you die, but it is also inside us, while we live. It is written:

Luke 17:20-21
"20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;
21 nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

It is also interesting to note that Jesus told us that we are gods (see John 10:34), but what Christian ever pays any attention to that message?

True Christianity is all based in one verse, in one commandment:

John 13:35
"35 By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

Mark seemed to have a slightly different take on this:

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

We also don't have a set of rules. Instead...
Romans 13:8
"8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. "

Christ didn't come to bring us a set of rules that we should follow. In the Old Commandment, God tried to make us follow the Law, which was based in His image so that we may be with Him, but because of our sinful nature we couldn't follow the rules. Not even Christians always follow the rules, since we are not perfect, like God is. That's why God sent Christ for us, so that we may be like Him! Since we cannot do it ourselves, He did it for us!

Once again, I beg to differ:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And of course, always remember that God is Love...

That may well be, but there is certainly very little evidence of that in the bible, and what little evidence that can be found there is contradicted by other evidence that can be found elsewhere in that same confusing book!

It is your chocie to become a Christian or not. I can't convince you on doing so, and it is not worth to discuss it that way. Always remember that you have a free will, and if you concider becoming a Christian to have all this Love and friendship, then I will be happy to help you.

I choose not to become a Christian. In fact, I made that choice long ago. I follow a different light that illuminates my way on my own solitary path. In a way, I think that's what you are doing too. After all, isn't that what is meant by Matthew 7:13,14?

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[TruthSeeker]

tiassa,

Then love fails.

No because it is not Love on this situation, it is the very lack of it from Satan's part.

The difference between your airplane example and God is that when you are there standing in front of me putting the parachute into my hands, there is no question that you are there putting the parachute into my hands.

You could easily not believe in me. God IS here, wheter you believe it or not. It is easy to believe in something that you can see, but do you believe that the plane can fly? Do you believe there is gravity? Do you believe the plane will crash because of gravity? All those things are invisible, but you still believe in them. So there is no excuse at all... If you believe, you shall be saved, if you don't you shall be condemned... by yourself.

Do you realize that if God itself appeared before everybody and said, "Now do you believe? Here's the easy way out," that there would be no question?

John 20:29
"29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

By your example, Nelson, the only issue of faith is whether or not the parachute is correctly packed.

Romans 12:3
"3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. "

Note: God gave everyone the same measure of faith, if you don't understand the verse...

 

[TruthSeeker]

Nehushta,

Again, I believe that one of Paul's chief aims with this epistle was to admonish Christians to separate themselves from the Gentiles so that they would not become corrupted by their ways. Paul's notion of the "perfect bond of unity" did not include unity with non-Christians.

God chose everyone, this is for everyone:
1 John 2:2
"2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. "

But then it is also written that a man should hate his family members if he wishes to be a disciple of Christ (see Luke 14:26). Such inconsistency...

I will take a note on that and discuss it with my pastor...:bugeye:

It seems to me that a major theme of the bible is to make people feel guilty for practically every thought and deed that is natural to mankind.

No. It is not to feel guilty, but simply to be aware of it.

Matthew 13:41-42
"41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth"

Metaphor. Have you read the parable? In the parable the tares are burned. He is still using the metaphor.

It is also interesting to note that Jesus told us that we are gods (see John 10:34), but what Christian ever pays any attention to that message?

John 10:30-38
"30 "I and the Father are one."
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
34 Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
35 "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

Jesus never told us we are gods. Apparently, He never even said that He Himself is God. He said that God sent Him. He said that God lives through Him. The Jews wanted to stone Him because the Jews didn't believe that God could live through us. But again, this is about God living in us (in our case, through Christ Jesus), not us being gods.

Mark seemed to have a slightly different take on this:

Mark 16:17-18
"17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

And how is that different!? If you Love someone, wouldn't you want to heal people from sickness? What about the serpents? Jesus was telling us that God will always protect us from evil. Remember that the serpent is a simbol of evil. How is that any different?

Once again, I beg to differ:

Matthew 5:17-19
"17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "

First of all, He was talking to the Jews. Before He died you HAD to follow the Law. Nowdays, after His death, we still follow the Law, but not in that way, we simply Love one another, cause that is what the Law is. We don't NEED to follow the Law anymore, but we SHOULD follow it.

That may well be, but there is certainly very little evidence of that in the bible, and what little evidence that can be found there is contradicted by other evidence that can be found elsewhere in that same confusing book!

You must read in context and see wheter it is a metaphor or something literal.

I choose not to become a Christian. In fact, I made that choice long ago. I follow a different light that illuminates my way on my own solitary path. In a way, I think that's what you are doing too. After all, isn't that what is meant by Matthew 7:13,14?

No.

Matthew 7:13-14
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Again, that is Old Testament. This was so because people had to keep the Law in order to go to heaven. Nowdays, everyone that believes goes there.

EDIT: It seems I'll have to go through a lot of stuff before really see people understanding what is written...
I will start some thread about that later. One about the differences between the Old and New covenant... other about faith and works... other about the works of the Law and grace...

*sigh... there is a lot of work to be done...

 

[(Q)]

Truthseeker

You must read in context and see wheter it is a metaphor or something literal.

If literal, then there should be ample evidence to back it up. If metaphor, then it is completely useless since each persons perception of the metaphor will differ.

 

[TruthSeeker]

(Q),

If literal, then there should be ample evidence to back it up. If metaphor, then it is completely useless since each persons perception of the metaphor will differ.

There is evidence. The letters Paul wrote are already an evidence themselves. There are others. The ark of the covenant is out there. Noah's ark is out there too. Just look for them and you will find (in fact, they were found... or at least the ark was found...).

The metaphors should be seen in the light of the whole scripture. If your interpratation don't match with other parts of the Bible, it is simply not right. For example:

Matthew 10:34
"34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. "

You probably think that He meant to bring war to earth. If you look at another scripture...:

Ephesians 6:17
"17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. "

Now, that brings new light to the first scripture. If you keep going... or actually read from the beginning of Ephesians 6...

Ephesians 6:12-13
"12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. "

So the "sword" that Jesus brings is not a physical one, but a spiritual one. Basically, what He meant is that we fight against evil with the word of God.

 

[(Q)]

The letters Paul wrote are already an evidence themselves.

Works of fiction - anyone can write letters. Do you believe everything you read?

The ark of the covenant is out there

The Babylonians melted it down for the gold in 587 BC.

Noah's ark is out there too.

Ah yes, the alleged ark. This is the ark that supposedly brought the 2 million known (10 million yet to be catalogued) species of animals (times 2) along for a boat ride, along with all the food and water to last 40 days or so. I guess you do believe everything you read.

 

[TruthSeeker]

(Q),

Works of fiction - anyone can write letters. Do you believe everything you read?

Read Acts... and Revelations...

The Babylonians melted it down for the gold in 587 BC.

Ok...

Ah yes, the alleged ark. This is the ark that supposedly brought the 2 million known (10 million yet to be catalogued) species of animals (times 2) along for a boat ride, along with all the food and water to last 40 days or so. I guess you do believe everything you read.

We didn't have that many species at that time... and they can be fed like Jesus fed 5000...

 

[(Q)]

Read Acts... and Revelations...

I have - they are works of fiction.

OK (Ark of Covenant)

It’s true. When the Babylonians captured Jerusalem in 587 BC they destroyed the temple and took the Ark back with them and melted it down for the gold. The Jews rebuilt the Temple about 70 years later, but there is no mention of the Ark in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah.

We didn't have that many species at that time...

Oh-oh! You just painted yourself into a corner. How many species were on board the Ark? Where did the rest of the species come from in the last few thousand years?

and they can be fed like Jesus fed 5000...

Ah… yeah, right. Tell that whopper of a story to the starving millions.

BTW – Jesus, if he existed at all, did not exist at the time of Noah, that is, if Noah even existed.

You’ve got quite the dream world working for you there.

 

[man_of_jade]

ah, but for the noahs ark story, they were most likeyl refering to the species in that area he was living in, a flood only in that area they were in. Thats more logical, isnt it?

 

[Tiassa]

Nelson ...,

No because it is not Love on this situation, it is the very lack of it from Satan's part.

Then love fails. If it cannot, then it will not. If it cannot, then it simply cannot.

God, who designed Satan, is responsible for creating a structure which allows a certain possible result. Having met that particular result, God finds the condition unsatisfactory.

You could easily not believe in me. God IS here, wheter you believe it or not. It is easy to believe in something that you can see, but do you believe that the plane can fly? Do you believe there is gravity? Do you believe the plane will crash because of gravity? All those things are invisible, but you still believe in them.

You are so very, very wrong here that it explains much of what you've presented of your theology.

- Starting point: In order to disbelieve your presence, I must reject what my senses inform me as you stand there offering the parachute. In order to believe God's presence, I must presume beyond my sensory capabilities. It's a huge difference: rejecting what is observed and presuming what cannot be observed.

- Plane can fly: This can be repeatedly demonstrated to me in a real and scientific fashion.

- Gravity: Gravity is a quantifiable force in nature which can be calculated, manipulated, and demonstrated.

- Plane will crash: Specifically, yet still approximately, the plane will crash because a lack of fuel will result in conditions whereby the engines cannot create enough thrust to generate the necessary lift to keep the plane in the air. Gravity will have the natural effect of drawing the plane--in this case--toward the ground.

- All of those things are invisible: An airplane flying is invisible? I can see gravity inasmuch as I can see electricity; take an astronomy course. Admittedly, I can't see the amount of fuel in the tanks or engines, but there is a clearly reliable and valid historical correspondence between the behavior of the failing engines and the fuel indicator reading "Empty". If you are standing in front of me, offering me the parachute ... you're invisible?

- If you believe, you shall be saved, if you don't you shall be condemned... by yourself: That seems to be the point of faith, doesn't it? Belief without confirmation? Belief without knowledge?

John 20:29

Right. It wouldn't be faith if God was standing right there saying, "I'm right here!"

In fact, wouldn't it be foolishness to believe in God then? But that's a theological peculiarity that is not universal to religions.

Note: God gave everyone the same measure of faith, if you don't understand the verse...

What would be a better offering would be if you explained how it is that you think that really pertains to whether or not the parachute is correctly packed, as there does exist the fact that not all jumpers in history have packed their own parachutes, and the reliability statistics on the chute opening are enough to warrant "faith", as such; some would consider it proof of the safety of jumping with a parachute they didn't personally pack.

There is no way to directly or exactly correlate God in any metaphor. That's sort of the problem. For this reason, I have known of minor sects among religions that refuse to quote the holy texts the way we might bandy about Bible verses. I know I've heard of at least one Muslim mystic who warned against snipping the Koran, but I can't remember who, so take that for what little it's worth.

And that's the thing: God is an utterly unique idea. There is no comparison to what the idea of God can include.

So part of what happens is that from a magnificently huge idea, various religions focus on narrow segments of the whole possibility. The Biblical version of God is plausible in the mythical or psychohistorical sense--the whole of the Bible carries with it an abstract truth that can be well-applied to living reality. However, the documentable result of the Bible (e.g. the faithful) has been anything but.

In any practical sense, the Biblical God is absurd. The whole of redemption is a natty, licentious mess. By the assertions of faith derived from Christianity or derived from the Bible (either way works), God is simply something which one cannot demonstrate. It is impossible for God to be known, else faith dies.

What was Jesus' proof that he was who Christians assert he was?

:m:,
Tiassa

 

[TruthSeeker]

It is pointless...

 

[Xev]

It is pointless...

Indeed it is.