the christian soul...

lightgigantic said:
if something can be constructed out of its base properties, you have eveything you need - similarly to say that life is material begs the q why life does not form when every material requirement for its existence is met and why life ceases in the presenceof such a fully equipped environment

what is the chemical difference?
Click to expand...

well for starters, the heart stopped working. or there's been an issue in the brain. or perhaps a disease, virus, etc., totally messed up a bodily process that lead to death.

lightgigantic said:
cells are not chemicals
Click to expand...

to be specific, an example of the red blood cell...
it is 97% hemoglobin without water.
meaning that the RBC has lots of iron (Fe), a heme portion, and a globin portion.
the globin are grouped up amino acids, while the heme portion will attach to albumin when the red blood cell dies and turn into bile.
..
or the fact that we carbon-based.

lightgigantic said:
then the question is "why" since you advocate that life is essentially dull matter to begin with - what chemicals does a living person have that a dead person doesn't? Why can't dead persons be revived or persons expectant of death be saved by applying these chemicals?
Click to expand...

dead persons can be revived, depending on how far into clinical death they're in. 4 minutes of oxygen-deprivation before the brain starts dying!


lightgigantic said:
so since everyone knows they will die, why don't they keep a stock pile of living person chemicals on hand to avoid this scenario?
Click to expand...

that's a question of the ability to attach the nerves to every part of the body properly, without a scratch, and ever-so-perfectly.. to be blunt.
 
lightgigantic said:
the point is that a rock doesn't have consciousness - have you ever heard of anyone exploiting rocks by treating them in inhumane ways?
Click to expand...

well, rocks are mere forms of geography.
they don't feel pain, because they aren't living.

plants may not feel pain, but they're living, and can certainly sense a harmful touch.
so one can see that some ferns, for example, retract (as if in pain) when hit.

and to add to information processes...
that was for the brain.
we are living, and we want to live as a biological being.
i still can't really grasp how the soul has to do with filtering information processes.
filtering information processes helps to keep us sane.
 
Last edited:
cpt.scruffy said:
it's a partial driver.
Click to expand...
just like the engine is the partial driver of a car, but the actual driver is the pilot
there's no doubt behind that.
i mean, the simple case of a reflex to pain is a clear and concise example of that.
Click to expand...
it just indicates an information system
in addition, the nature of dna is biological evidence.
stem cells in the bone marrow?
there's another one.
Click to expand...
again just the chemical information life utilizes - dna is not life
what else, blood...
the leukocytes are the the full-blown eukaryotes of blood's buffy coat layer.
they attack foreign objects. and the type of leukocytes vary depending on the foreign material. much of their actions have nothing to do with our personality, but they act on their own terms.
Click to expand...
and the brake fluid of a car also has its application - as does the oil, the radiator and the water pump etc etc

in terms of personality-driving properties... an error in the dna, that creates an issue with the body, which leads to properties of our personality, behaviour, and everything that may seem to be the soul, but in reality is the effect on our brain to adapt.
Click to expand...
the soul is more than just a mere personality - it is the 'amness" of "I think therefore I am"

of course, a theist may argue that the soul is adapting itself, as it's the pilot of the body, but can't quite control what happens, hence adapation.
but i think the biology of us is far too mechanical.
Click to expand...
at last I wouldn't argue like that - seems you are confusing the conceived self (how we awarded a greater or lesser mode of life according to environment) as the same as teh self as context (the nature of being alive, distinct from being dead)

maybe i wasn't too clear on what you meant though. but the body certainly does have a drive for the us.
Click to expand...
thats why I used the car analogy - it also has its system of locomotion - bu tthe most integral element is the driver himself, without which, even the most perfectly mainatined vehicle will remain motionless
 
cpt.scruffy said:
well, rocks are mere forms of geography.
they don't feel pain, because they aren't living.

plants may not feel pain, but they're living, and can certainly sense a harmful touch.
so one can see that some ferns, for example, retract (as if in pain) when hit.
Click to expand...
therefore plants have life and rocks do not - it also explains why the bodies of dead people are just like rocks
 
When a battery runs out of "juice" or shorts out, what's the functional difference between the good battery vs the "dead" battery?
 
superluminal said:
When a battery runs out of "juice" or shorts out, what's the functional difference between the good battery vs the "dead" battery?
Click to expand...
the dead battery requires re-juicing, which can be applied at any stage of the process of becoming juiceless
If life could be rejuiced in a similar fashion, the argument that life is a material phenomena would be evidential as opposed to theoretical
 
lightgigantic said:
the dead battery requires re-juicing, which can be applied at any stage of the process of becoming juiceless
If life could be rejuiced in a similar fashion, the argument that life is a material phenomena would be evidential as opposed to theoretical
Click to expand...
It can. People have been dead for many minutes and "re-juiced". A lithium battery can not be "re-juiced". It's born, it serves a useful purpose, then it dies. Does it have a soul? If not, by what measure do you determine this to be the case?
 
the reason why i went so specific, is because
there are so many processes and issues that happen in the body,
that it goes with adaptation.

everything we do, everything that happens to us influences our mind, which creates our personality. how we behave, etc.
being schizophrenic is a multifactorial trait, for example.
it's in your genes. it can change you.
you have all the factors for it, but you need this extra process to make it happen... to change your personality.
so you smoke too much weed one day,
and voila you're schizophrenic and thinking delusionally, being ridiculously happy, and at times thinking just thinking radically.

-------------------------------------------------------

when you talk to someone, say a friend.
you're talking to him in a manner in which you believe you're being completely yourself.
and you are.

but you find yourself talking to another friend talking in a totally different manner, but you're believing you're being completely yourself.
and you are.

and you do this when you're by yourself. you're being yourself, and you really are.

and then look into it, you find that you really ARE yourself the whole time with yourself, and the two very good friends you have.

and you find that, wow i'm a good adapter.
you look at the conscience, and notice, man it must shift though.
you're behaving in matters of adaptation in order to survive,
you're learning how to survive.
the gift of the easy, unnoticeable shifts of mind, doesn't happen to everyone,
not because of the soul, but your biological make up.
how were you raised? how are you genes?
dahdahdah.

----------------------------------------------------------

monozygotic twins... 100% similar dna.
separated with different adopting parents.
the twins have many of the same gestures, movements, behaviours to each other.
in essence, at this point of young age, before they hit more influential stages in their life, they're very similar in personality.
it's as if they're the same soul!

but you know, they live their environment (one is popular and wealthy, another is the opposite), and their personalities separate.
they're totally different.

from the odd occurence of meeting each other every few years.
they find they used to love each other, but in the end despise each other.

genes and the environment developing the personalities here.
the idea of a soul here is awkard, whereas
the personality seems to make much more sense when it comes to discussing multifactorial questions aka genes and environment.
 
superluminal said:
It can. People have been dead for many minutes and "re-juiced". A lithium battery can not be "re-juiced". It's born, it serves a useful purpose, then it dies. Does it have a soul? If not, by what measure do you determine this to be the case?
Click to expand...
the battery thing is not an argument for the soul - it is an argument about the soul's non -existence - as for humans being rejuiced, its more an issue of medical practioners and the like being totally bewildered and being delivered an unexpected result, rather than the process of applying a process to get a result (which is what science is) - in other words when a dead person comes back to life it is an issue of undetermined variables coming into play as opposed to scientific proceedure (sometimes people wake up in the morgue)
 
good debate, i'll be back tomorrow or later tonight.
i gotta get back to my studies. a;sdlkfj
 
lightgigantic said:
the battery thing is not an argument for the soul - it is an argument about the soul's non -existence - as for humans being rejuiced, its more an issue of medical practioners and the like being totally bewildered and being delivered an unexpected result, rather than the process of applying a process to get a result (which is what science is) - in other words when a dead person comes back to life it is an issue of undetermined variables coming into play as opposed to scientific proceedure (sometimes people wake up in the morgue)
Click to expand...
When someone has cardiac arrest, doctors use a well established process to restart the heart.
 
It's funny. Every time I "debate" with LG it proves that he is a selfish coward. He will never pursue a logical line of questioning to it's conclusion. He always dismisses the questions when they start to lead somewhere he dosen't want to go. Poor, intellectually fraudulent LG.
 
superluminal said:
It's funny. Every time I "debate" with LG it proves that he is a selfish coward. He will never pursue a logical line of questioning to it's conclusion. He always dismisses the questions when they start to lead somewhere he dosen't want to go. Poor, intellectually fraudulent LG.
Click to expand...
therefore I assert that logic has its limitations - if it didn't there would be no need for prac
 
I dont think you even need to invoke a soul to supose that the human mind is part of something larger than itself.
The universe work's in a series of systems and sub-systems, theres no reason to believe that humans and human society isnt part of something bigger.
We're all essentially part of the huge fuck off entity that is 'the universe' and if you can forget youre human for long enough it will become apparent.
Shit, if a human cell could reason it would most likely argue reason that it was a singular individual and argue with anyone who dared to suggest that it was actually a small cog in much larger sentient whole.
 
lightgigantic said:
just like the engine is the partial driver of a car, but the actual driver is the pilot
Click to expand...
yesh, the brain!
i suppose yours is the soul!

lightgigantic said:
it just indicates an information system
Click to expand...

yes, indeed, but nevertheless it shows it has a drive of its own.
pain reflex in that the spine reacts before the brain does.

lightgigantic said:
again just the chemical information life utilizes - dna is not life
Click to expand...
dna is a huge factor in influencing life!
that's how we evolve!
from metazoan worms to crawling beings to humans!
that's how we die of cancer!
how's there to say it isn't life?
it pretty much structures our life.

lightgigantic said:
and the brake fluid of a car also has its application - as does the oil, the radiator and the water pump etc etc
Click to expand...

:) i was being annoyingly specific. cells are chemicals! which makes everything about us chemicals, and products of their reactions!


lightgigantic said:
the soul is more than just a mere personality - it is the 'amness" of "I think therefore I am"
Click to expand...

i realise that, to me that's the brain.
and as said before, the "amness" being the information filtration process to keep us at at a good adaptive stance in nature.


lightgigantic said:
at last I wouldn't argue like that - seems you are confusing the conceived self (how we awarded a greater or lesser mode of life according to environment) as the same as teh self as context (the nature of being alive, distinct from being dead)
Click to expand...

nature of being alive, is a reflection of what i'm saying.


lightgigantic said:
thats why I used the car analogy - it also has its system of locomotion - bu tthe most integral element is the driver himself, without which, even the most perfectly mainatined vehicle will remain motionless
Click to expand...

i used to think that, with the whole I, amness, and whatnot.
but i there is a better explanation for it, and it is straightforward to me.
the driver itself is a working machine, not the soul.
the driver this the driver that.
what are the mechanics of the driver?
that's our brain!
the brain drives the body!
but the brain needs the body to survive!
i mean, the brain takes up most of our glucose intake anyway. :p
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top