The Bible encourages questioning

[Tiassa]

Don't project your failures onto me, Tony1

You still don't get it.

And you have amply demonstrated yourself unqualified to judge that.

Your side of the debate is feces.

Yes, I understand how obsession can be; I tend to see much irony in the world. You tend to see feces. It's your choice to seek such things.

In lieu of having a point, you were insisting that the people who spread AIDS are the ones who don't have it.

Well, Tony1, if you know of a problem, don't do anything about it, and don't tell anyone the problem exists, you're wilfully promoting the problem. I know some people would like to believe that prayer would make it go away, but influenza can kill and that means we're all irresponsible even being in the same room with one another.

If it was as simple as letting the IV drug users die off the face of the earth, I'm happy for their choice. But the problem perpetuates because the same people who oppose needle exchanges, for instance, also muck up the information flow and create circumstances which historically result in increased substance abuse among societies.

You may be right, which is why I applied your standards to the issue.
As you just proved, you take exception to your own standards.

How take exception? I think you just admitted that you're spreading idiocy. At least, that's what those words that make up the sentence mean. I know you'd like to think you're undermining my standards with your exceptionally poor rhetorical tactic, but the simple fact remains that your perception of idiocy is about as well-placed as your perception of the Buddha: that is to say, embittered, bigoted, and empty.

And the Buddha is in that hole

And if only you understood how that statement could be true, you might then be capable of understanding the degree of the idiocy you spread, and your moral imperative to conduct yourself both more forthrightly and compassionately.

--Tiassa

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by tiassa
You tend to see feces.*

I'm looking at your posts.
What else could I see?

*but influenza can kill and that means we're all irresponsible even being in the same room with one another.*

No it can't.

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
(Luke 10:19, KJV).

Of course, "you" there refers to me, not you.

*If it was as simple as letting the IV drug users die off the face of the earth, I'm happy for their choice.*

Of course, the issue is to get the IV users saved and cleaned up.
That way they aren't spreading AIDS.

*I think you just admitted that you're spreading idiocy.*

I am, by letting you spread it.
According to your own reasoning, if I am aware of a problem and I don't do anything about it, I'm part of the problem.

I will now do something about the problem.

tiassa has idiocy and he is spreading it around.

There, my job's done, and I am no longer responsible for spreading idiocy.

*your perception of idiocy is about as well-placed as your perception of the Buddha: that is to say, embittered, bigoted, and empty.*

You are GOOD.
That IS how I think of you, "embittered, bigoted, and empty."

*And if only you understood how that statement could be true, *

So, you see the Buddha is in the hole, then?

 

[Tiassa]

You're kind of a joke, Tony1 ... kind of but not really because you're not funny

I'm looking at your posts.
What else could I see?

Words? Electricity? Soy ink on wood pulp if you've gone so far as to print out the posts. But since you don't actually read them, I don't see why you would print them.

No it can't.

You're right, Tony1 ... influenza never has and never will kill anyone.

No wonder you had to drop out of med school.

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
(Luke 10:19, KJV).

Of course, "you" there refers to me, not you.

And there we have it!



Hooray for Tony1! He finally did it!

And thus you have finally spilled a Biblical phrase that explains to us why you treat everyone like crap. So you have the power, and that is what is important to you.

At least now we know.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat005.html#5

Of course, the issue is to get the IV users saved and cleaned up.
That way they aren't spreading AIDS.

Saved? As in by Christ? But if the Bible's not for a questioning 13 year-old, how can it possibly be for an addict who is incapable of making their own proper decisions? Can they be trusted to see what's right? I'm just trying to find some consistency in your approach, so I want to make sure I understand your criteria properly.

But otherwise, yes, I agree with you that the important thing is to get the junkies off drugs. Yes, that will help reduce the spread of AIDS. But in the meantime, we need to reduce the harm that comes from drug abuse until we can get a handle on it.

I am, by letting you spread it.
According to your own reasoning, if I am aware of a problem and I don't do anything about it, I'm part of the problem.

I will now do something about the problem.

tiassa has idiocy and he is spreading it around.

There, my job's done, and I am no longer responsible for spreading idiocy.

Ah, you'll have to document that idiocy now. After all, it's apparently a disease, if I have idiocy. So how do you diagnose the disease, Doctor?

Oh, I'm sorry. That's right. You never actually became a doctor.

Apparently, reducing the spread of HIV is idiocy, since that's what we're discussing.

For instance: needle exchanges are shown to reduce the spread of HIV among intravenous drug users, and furthermore seems to be an effective gateway to treatment options. Both these trends are reflected in statistical assessments. Why, then, does one oppose needle exchange? When needle exchange is present, new HIV cases drop and treatment increases. This as opposed to no needle exchanges. For one to oppose needle exchanges, one must accept that the HIV rate will increase, and that the I&I theory applied to the drug war (incapacitation and incarceration) reflects statistically an increase in drug-related disease and violence.

At question is how HIV spreads among drug users, and what can be done to prevent that. Abstinence from heroin is ideal, we can agree. But since you share the community with the junkies, ought they not be allowed some measure of safety so that their presence, even in the idea reduction of drug abuse, is not a danger to those in your community?

Show the idiocy, Tony1.

You are GOOD.
That IS how I think of you, "embittered, bigoted, and empty."

Learn to read. I shall, however, for your benefit, clarify ... no, it's clear enough.

Learn to read.

So, you see the Buddha is in the hole, then?

Why is it that you'll only approach this issue from that one mode of question? Have you any wisdom on the subject? I thought not. The Buddha is in the hole, and in the cloud, and in the stone, and in the rosebud. I know such ideas are absolutely ridiculous to you; when you say it of God it is merely a faith recital. But here it indicates the interconnectedness of all things. If you don't understand that interconnectedness, don't worry. It's not so much that he idea isn't meant for Christians, but rather that Christians seem to prefer ideas that make their own selves seem more important.

--Tiassa

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by tiassa
Words? Electricity? Soy ink on wood pulp*

Nope. Crap.

* influenza never has and never will kill anyone. *

It can't kill me.
As for you, it's pretty much open season on you for any stray virus.

*He finally did it!*

If I'd known you were waiting for that, I'd have told you much sooner.

*So you have the power, and that is what is important to you.*

Oh, I've got the power all right, but it isn't important to me like it would be to you.

*At least now we know.*

It's no secret.
It's been written right there for almost 2000 years.

*//www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat005.html#5*

LOL!
Antichristians attempting to sermonize is too funny.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
(Matthew 11:29, KJV).

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(Matthew 28:18, KJV).

Meek means having all power, it doesn't mean being some wishy-washy doormat for every antichristian philosophizer.

Do you want me to use some of that power to help you?

* Saved? As in by Christ? But if the Bible's not for a questioning 13 year-old, how can it possibly be for an addict who is incapable of making their own proper decisions? Can they be trusted to see what's right? I'm just trying to find some consistency in your approach, so I want to make sure I understand your criteria properly.*

It's for people who believe it.

*But in the meantime, we need to reduce the harm that comes from drug abuse until we can get a handle on it.*

"We?"
Don't you mean "someone else?"
You don't actually have any plans for getting a handle on anything at all, let alone someone else's problems.

*Ah, you'll have to document that idiocy now.*

Sciforums has done it for me by saving all of your posts.

*So how do you diagnose the disease, Doctor?*

By reading your posts.

*Apparently, reducing the spread of HIV is idiocy, since that's what we're discussing.*

Reducing the spread of HIV is a good thing.
The idiocy is just you.

*...The Buddha is in the hole...*

The Buddha is down the tubes.

 

[Tiassa]

Slogans?

Nope. Crap.

I figure someday you'll learn to be expressive enough to explain why, and thus legitimize your consistently negative presumptions. All we know of what you mean right now is that you think anything is crap if it disagrees with you.

It can't kill me.
As for you, it's pretty much open season on you for any stray virus

Ah, we see, in addition to the dodge of the issue, two important and closely-related aspects of your debate method.

* Dodge: You asserted that influenza can't kill. You've noted that what is important to that statement is that you don't think it can kill you. Well, this has nothing to do with the question of whether or not influenza can kill anyone. Why did you avoid that issue? Is it because you don't want to address the notion of responsibility as you've asserted?

* Self 1: Lack of compassion- So in response to the sarcastically-founded statement that you're right when you say that influenza can't kill anyone, you respond that it can't kill you. While this is true enough to establish your point, you've also limited considerations of other people to a consideration of your self. This self-centeredness indicates that you are more obsessed with scoring whatever points your game entitles you to than you are with other people in the world; that is, your petty need to stop Tiassa has become more important than giving honest consideration to the wellbeing of other human beings. Pretty f--king Christian, by my standards. You're more like the Catholics of darkened days past than you know; just because you give it a paint job and cut a couple of corners doesn't mean that it's not the same thing. It achieves the same results. Sure, you don't get to burn us at the stake anymore Tony1, but you proudly tout that need to crush what you declare an enemy.

If I'd known you were waiting for that, I'd have told you much sooner.

Actually, I'm happy you admitted it to everyone. We now have in front of us an example of how a self-declared Christian favors one part of God's Word over another. You find that empowerment--a common lust among humans--more important than Matthew 25 (and its relation to the Sermon on the Mount) or the risk of calling some mysterious device of God work of the Devil. Perhaps you don't understand that for generations, Christianity has advertised itself by the compassion of Matthew 25 and the universal brotherhood it advocates (1) and acted upon passages such as the bit from Luke 10 whereby you justify your own hatreds. It would seem that you have manipulated your Bible to allow you the same things it advocates against; it would seem you've achieved the vulgar fulfillment of Thelema: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Self 2: Win or lose- It would seem, Tony1, that your frequent comparisons of yourself against others (I'm saved, you're not; Can't kill me but it's open season on you; &c) indicate that you are quite concerned with yourself in the comparative sense. You feel the need to be superior? Is that why you speak in terms of winning and losing? What is this obsession with establishing yourself as a higher rank of something than any other?

It's no secret.
It's been written right there for almost 2000 years.

Are you, then, claiming to be God? It's been written for 2,000 years ... what, how you, Tony1 operate? Or are you doing that thing again where you extend your priorities to all Christians?

Antichristians attempting to sermonize is too funny.

Well, yeah. To the other, did you simply assume all of the sermonizing commentary that went with the Biblical citation provided? Don't worry about that, Note 1 from the prior section of this post is addressed below; we'll get to it.

Meek means having all power, it doesn't mean being some wishy-washy doormat for every antichristian philosophizer.

Yes, I accented the first part of the sentence there.

I don't suppose you'd like to demonstrate that, would you? Come on, Tony1 ... show me where meek means having all power. Really, this oughta be entertaining at least.

Do you want me to use some of that power to help you?

Tony1, the world in general ... well, it's actually better off the less you help it to Christ. You've already decared that your faith is designed to chase people from God; you've already announced that your faith is designed to empower you to crush those who don't subscribe to your ideology; you've already proclaimed by your expressions at Sciforums that you know what God knows. Really, people who think of God the way you express it generally hurt humanity. The less you do to help, the better. When you finally decide to be a Christian instead of just call yourself one, then you can try helping people. But since you're already aiming toward the condemnation of others, you needn't "help" them along any further.

It's for people who believe it.

Ah ... I see. So it's for those who are psychiatrically conditioned by their communities to believe in it? Were you born reciting the Gospel? Did you have to learn it? Who taught you about the Bible?

Of course, I should simply accept this declaration of yours that faith is for those predisposed toward it anyway, and be happy with the fact that you're making a point that both Cris and I, as well as several others at this board, have made.

"We?"
Don't you mean "someone else?"
You don't actually have any plans for getting a handle on anything at all, let alone someone else's problems.

"We", as in the society, community, or other collective which one might include me among. We could start with taxes: I don't want my tax money locking up potheads while turning crack-pimps back onto the streets; I don't want my tax money making my community more dangerous. There are many taxpayers, who all claim to wish that their government would do what is "best" or "right". In this society, we have declared that drugs are dangerous and bad and spread diseases, yet we write laws that pretty much ensure this danger, badness, and disease. The "we" which you have failed to understand is the "we" that is constituted by a society that tries to do what's right. It's okay, Tony1 ... what, with all your focus on salvation and your sole knowledge of God's Mysterious Ways, we understand if you forget about ideas like community and society. We understand if you decide that you're the only important thing in the world.

Sciforums has done it for me by saving all of your posts.

I'll grant you that consistency, Tony1 ... you never stop thinking that everyone should think just like you. Consequently, you seem to forget that they don't think just like you. You'll have to do better than lazy and smarmy, boy.

*So how do you diagnose the disease, Doctor?*

By reading your posts.

Is that just like Med School? It "just happens"?

Seriously, you live in a world where you're free to perceive what you like. But if you want the credibility of making sense, you're going to have to make sense to other people. The first step is to stop assuming that you know what other people think.

Reducing the spread of HIV is a good thing.
The idiocy is just you.

You're the one who rejects harm reduction in favor of an abstinence goal that historically has proven impossible. Ah, why bother? When you're relying on the idiocy is just you for an argument, I'll just leave that out there for everyone to consider.

The Buddha is down the tubes.

You've almost reached Zen pointlessness, Tony1. But you never will because in order to be Zen anything you have to divorce yourself from that petty thrill you seek with each anemic dismissal.

I'd tell you to try again; I'd tell you to do better. But what good would it really do? All my encouragement this far hasn't had much effect. Of course, I never really expected it to.

Note 1--Universal brotherhood in Matthew 25: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?postid=58090&highlight=brethren#post58090

Do you remember, Tony1, back about 10/15 when I accused you of violating Matthew 25? When I pointed out that the spite that you show Bebelina or myself or anyone else, so also you show unto Jesus Christ? Do you recall your response, on 10/21? When you wrote, You're not his brethren? I do, and I even remember the passage from Romans you supplied to justify your position.

I remind you of Matthew 25 and point out Matthew 5, which you found quite funny, because it's important to your declaration from Luke 10 that you should crush those you declare an enemy.

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?
48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5.44-48)

You so limit yourself in defense of the God you've created.

It's pretty black and white (I can get all red-letter if you want). Do what thou wilt, Tony1. I'm not asking you to undertake a new philosophy; I'm advising you to celebrate the one you employ.

--Tiassa

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by tiassa
All we know of what you mean right now is that you think anything is crap if it disagrees with you.*

Oh no, feel free to disagree if you can present your case with reason and logic.
I mean actual reason and actual logic, not the random statements you define as such.

*You asserted that influenza can't kill. You've noted that what is important to that statement is that you don't think it can kill you. Well, this has nothing to do with the question of whether or not influenza can kill anyone. Why did you avoid that issue? Is it because you don't want to address the notion of responsibility as you've asserted?*

Influenza can't kill.
Belief that influenza can kill is very deadly.

*you've also limited considerations of other people to a consideration of your self.*

Hardly.
Anyone is free to consider anything they wish.

*Sure, you don't get to burn us at the stake anymore Tony1, but you proudly tout that need to crush what you declare an enemy.*

Your position as the forum projectionist is safe.
You're forgetting that it was Catholics such as yourself burning Christians.

*You find that empowerment--a common lust among humans--more important than Matthew 25*

Actually, I am empowered to act according to Matt. 25.
You on the other hand are completely incapacitated from ever acting as in Matt. 25.

*Perhaps you don't understand that for generations, Christianity has advertised itself by the compassion of Matthew 25 and the universal brotherhood it advocates (1) and acted upon passages such as the bit from Luke 10*

For generations, people such as yourself have emphasized Matt. 25. over Luke 10.
That's the folly of listening to antichristian preaching.
Mind you, for many people, who are used to people such as yourself preaching from "Christian" pulpits, that seems right.
I'm fortunate to have missed a lot of pagan "Christian" preaching.

*Self 2: Win or lose- It would seem, Tony1, that your frequent comparisons of yourself against others (I'm saved, you're not; Can't kill me but it's open season on you; &c) indicate that you are quite concerned with yourself in the comparative sense. You feel the need to be superior? Is that why you speak in terms of winning and losing? What is this obsession with establishing yourself as a higher rank of something than any other?*

Wrong idea, tiassa.
It's life and death, and I've got life.
Maybe you want life, maybe you don't.
I can only highlight the differences.

*It's been written for 2,000 years ... what,*

The verse Luke 10:19...

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
(Luke 10:19, KJV).

There it is again.

*did you simply assume all of the sermonizing commentary that went with the Biblical citation provided?*

I don't bother with commentaries all that much.
In so many cases they merely distract from the point.

*Yes, I accented the first part of the sentence there.
I don't suppose you'd like to demonstrate that, would you? Come on, Tony1 ... show me where meek means having all power*

OK.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
(Matthew 11:29, KJV).

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
(Matthew 28:18, KJV).

*Ah ... I see. So it's for those who are psychiatrically conditioned by their communities to believe in it? Were you born reciting the Gospel? Did you have to learn it? Who taught you about the Bible?*

This may come as a surprise to you, but millions of Christians become Christians from among antichristian communities.
Hell's Angels get saved, and it's pretty certain that they aren't "psychiatrically conditioned by their communities to believe."
Muslims get saved and they aren't conditioned either.
Even Roman Catholics get saved, and if there is one community around that conditions people not to believe the Bible, it is the Roman Catholic Church.

*"We", as in the society, community, or other collective which one might include me among.*

Or not.
You have no plans to help anyone else.
You don't even know what the term means.

*you seem to forget that they don't think just like you. *

They don't have to.
They still save your posts.

*Is that just like Med School? It "just happens"?*

For someone such as yourself Med School is hard work, if you could even get accepted.
For me, yeah, it "just happens."

In case you're talking about your own diagnosis, yeah, that pretty much happens, too.

*Seriously, you live in a world where you're free to perceive what you like. But if you want the credibility of making sense, you're going to have to make sense to other people. The first step is to stop assuming that you know what other people think*

I don't assume, I know.
In any case, I don't need to make sense to you to convince you.
That would be too easy.
If I say that my life is easier than yours because I'm a Christian and everything works out for my benefit, and nothing to my harm, I don't care if you want "proof."
I'll just watch you slowly spiral downward doing a crash-and-burn.
Then I'll ask, do you still need proof?

Other people aren't as dense as you are, they see that what I'm saying may make no sense, but they want what I've got.
Once they have it, they see the sense in it.

I would have thought that everyone would see the sense in having everything work out well and never ill.
But you're too smart for that, you want everything to work for ill and nothing for good.
Who am I to argue with the madness in your method?

*I remind you of Matthew 25 and point out Matthew 5, which you found quite funny, because it's important to your declaration from Luke 10 that you should crush those you declare an enemy.*

Sounds cute, but you're conveniently forgetting the long series of posts where I said we weren't opponents.

Now you know why.
And where did you find out?
Why, the Bible of course.
Even for you the Bible is the final arbiter of everything.

 

[Mr. G]

dan1123,

<<...The Bible encourages questioning...>>

Tell that to Bruno, and Galileo: "E pur si muove."

The authors of the bible encouraged people only to ask what was written on the next page.

All questioning is not skeptical, individual thinking.

Too much questioning is simple, programmed herding instinct.

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by Mr. G
Too much questioning is simple, programmed herding instinct. *

Yup, that's what we're saying, and the herd would be of goats.

That's why us sheep favor answers.

 

[Tiassa]

And you're forgetting your own recklessness, Tony1

Sounds cute, but you're conveniently forgetting the long series of posts where I said we weren't opponents.

You seem to be conveniently forgetting the long habit you have of charging people with being possessed by demons, in the thrall of the Devil, and so forth. So, what's up with the Devil and his minions this time? They ain't heavy, they're your brothers?

When you accuse people (e.g. Beblina, Banshee) of being in cahoots with someone your religion calls an enemy (e.g. Satan), you accuse them of being your enemy.

--Tiassa

 

[Taken]

I am sorry I missed this thread up untill now, by far a worthy discusion. May I say I am quite impressed with many of the posts. I think you peeps are gonna grow on me.
I don't know about anyone else but I wasn't born with the head knowledge of God and certainly not the heart knowledge. Someone told me about Him, and I had to decide if I believed it. Ta Da...I HAD to question God's existance. Well I guess I could have just believed everything anybody ever told me..but thank God I didn't. ) Christians should question. God likes it when we seek Him. He likes those who seek the truth. We would be led astray by all manner of false doctrine if we didn't question. And by questioning God, we test Him and He proves himself to be with out deciet. Thus we begin to build a strong foundation in our beliefs. And as a Christian I love seeing non believers question, as long as they are open to asking a question about God then they are open to be given an answer. PEACE

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by tiassa
You seem to be conveniently forgetting the long habit you have of charging people with being possessed by demons, in the thrall of the Devil, and so forth. So, what's up with the Devil and his minions this time?*

You're setting records.
More sidetracks than sentences.

What's this "in the thrall of the Devil" accusation?
Besides, I haven't been "charging" people with being possessed.
If they're careless enough to let their demons do their writing for them, then it's prima facie.

*When you accuse people (e.g. Beblina, Banshee) of being in cahoots with someone your religion calls an enemy (e.g. Satan), you accuse them of being your enemy.*

Nah.
They're captives of the enemy, not the enemy itself.

 

[Taken]

"You have claimed to understand a philosophy of which you are apparently incapable of demonstrating any knowledge or familiarity. This kind of presumptuousness among Christians has long marked the Western search for God as haughty and undignified.
Needle exchanges are shown to reduce both disease and addiction by providing sanitation and information. When one opposes such a measure based on a long-standing, arbitrary position in the drug war, doesn't it seem strange to choose pride over human life?"


tiassa is right in both accounts. A closed mind and a blind adhearance to human cruelty for the sake of some proclaimed morality is not a good thing...EVER!

And Tony is probably right, He wont get influenza and die, he will probably never be bitten by a poisonouse snake, heck he probably isnt even tempted by the things us meare mortals or even Jesus was. Tony as a christian is doing more to turn people away from God than any athiest has ever even lifted a finger to do. Shoot, the devil certainly isn't gonna mess with that. Heck old Lucifer is probably out side takeing a cigarette break.

tiassa I do ask you to reconsider one statement, the one about the preceeding arogance being brought to you by Jesus Christ. Not all christians are the same. And Jesus certainly has nothing to do with us running around sounding like blind fools and the trying to justify it as His teaching. Peace

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by Taken
tiassa is right in both accounts. A closed mind and a blind adhearance to human cruelty for the sake of some proclaimed morality is not a good thing...EVER!*

So which is it, right on both accounts, or closed mind, etc?
I realize that tiassa's closeness of mind is rather obvious, but how does that make him right?

*And Tony is probably right, He wont get influenza and die, he will probably never be bitten by a poisonouse snake, heck he probably isnt even tempted by the things us meare mortals or even Jesus was.*

Read your Bible, instead of using it as a doorstop.

*Heck old Lucifer is probably out side takeing a cigarette break.*

Nope, he's right there pointing things out for you to complain about.
What gospel do you have to preach?
So far, you're preaching poverty, getting sick, getting bit by poisonous snakes and probably some other weirdnesses I haven't read yet.
That should win lots of people over.

There is nothing like being a poverty-stricken snakebite victim with the flu to make people sit up and take notice.

*Not all christians are the same.*

You're right; some have never read the Bible.

 

[Tiassa]

Taken ...,

Wow. You've had quite the performance this far. It's been interesting to watch, to say the least. And thank you for your kind words, and also for your understanding of a few things going on.

Tony as a christian is doing more to turn people away from God than any athiest has ever even lifted a finger to do.

Have you met Sir Loone? The name says it all. But Tony1 has declared before that such is the point of his religion (Crumbling the Foundations of Christianity, 10/27/01). It stunned the heck out of me, but it explains much about the nature of his posts pretty much since his arrival.

tiassa I do ask you to reconsider one statement, the one about the preceeding arogance being brought to you by Jesus Christ. Not all christians are the same. And Jesus certainly has nothing to do with us running around sounding like blind fools and the trying to justify it as His teaching.

Make you a deal: Give me seven out of ten for sarcasm and I'll reconsider.

Actually, while you know and I know that it's up to any one person to build their relationship with God, Tony1 does not seem to recognize this. I consider it an appropriate assertion in the sense that Ton1 recognizes only his own sense of Christianity. His unyielding need to assign your thoughts to you, and to assume on God's behalf means that if he is right, such a mess of human indignity as he presents is brought to you by Jesus Christ. Now, I tend to agreee with you that, insofar as my time among Christians taught me, Jesus ain't down with Tony1's kind of horsepucky. But then again ... well, you may or may not be familiar with my criticisms of the public face of the Christian body social. I think Tony1 is exemplary of Christianity in one aspect: he summarizes all of the presumption of the myriad faces of Chrisitanity I've known to be exploited as political devices against people.

However, Taken, we both know that contained within Christianity is a vast potential for human advancement, both in knowledge and moral understanding. The point is that while I agree that Jesus didn't die so people could run around disgracing his name and tainting his gospel, I leave the statement as a testament to what the faith can produce if left to sprout amid a garden of superstition and self-assumption. It's a point about which I must insist as politely as possible: we know the Inquisitors weren't right, but such is religion and cheap superstition and greed. Whether or not we agree with what a religion produces n people, we have to acknowledge that the religion is a significant part of the journey from Point A to wherever in the galaxy Tony1 is. Of course, it could easily have been brought to us by simple hubris, so I owe that acknowledgement, as well.

I don't know about anyone else but I wasn't born with the head knowledge of God and certainly not the heart knowledge. Someone told me about Him, and I had to decide if I believed it. Ta Da...I HAD to question God's existance. Well I guess I could have just believed everything anybody ever told me..but thank God I didn't. ) Christians should question. God likes it when we seek Him. He likes those who seek the truth. We would be led astray by all manner of false doctrine if we didn't question. And by questioning God, we test Him and He proves himself to be with out deciet. Thus we begin to build a strong foundation in our beliefs. And as a Christian I love seeing non believers question, as long as they are open to asking a question about God then they are open to be given an answer.

Peace, indeed. Take it easy, Taken.

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by tiassa
And thank you for your kind words, and also for your understanding of a few things going on.*

See here, Taken, how you are being complimented by another of the possessed.
That should be further warning.

*It stunned the heck out of me, but it explains much about the nature of his posts pretty much since his arrival.*

Another point of agreement.
You are stunned.
You seem to spell it "stoned" most of the time, though, which is somewhat unusual.

*Peace, indeed. Take it easy, Taken.*

Taken, you're in rough shape now, since what tiassa appears to be agreeing with is your statement, "And by questioning God, we test Him and He proves himself to be with out deciet. Thus we begin to build a strong foundation in our beliefs. And as a Christian I love seeing non believers question, as long as they are open to asking a question about God then they are open to be given an answer."

Nothing satan loves better than a "believer" who questions God.
Especially one who "tests" God.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
(Matthew 4:7, KJV).

 

[Taken]

Pull out your dictionary and look up the difference between Test and Tempt...
Judg 6:39 Then Gideon said to God, "Do not let Your anger burn against me that I may speak once more; please let me make a test once more with the fleece, let it now be dry only on the fleece, and let there be dew on all the ground."
2 Sam 22:31 "As for God, His way is blameless;
The word of the LORD is tested;
He is a shield to all who take refuge in Him
Job 12:11 "Does not the ear test words,
As the palate tastes its food?



Bottom line on questioning:
Prov 2:1 My son, if you will receive my words
And treasure my commandments within you,
Prov 2:2 Make your ear attentive to wisdom,
Incline your heart to understanding;
Prov 2:3 For if you cry for discernment,
Lift your voice for understanding;
Prov 2:4 If you seek her as silver
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
Prov 2:5 Then you will discern the fear of the LORD
And discover the knowledge of God.
Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Prov 2:7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk in integrity,
Prov 2:8 Guarding the paths of justice,
And He preserves the way of His godly ones.
Prov 2:9 Then you will discern righteousness and justice
And equity and every good course.
Prov 2:10 For wisdom will enter your heart
And knowledge will be pleasant to your soul;
Prov 2:11 Discretion will guard you,
Understanding will watch over you,

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by Taken
Pull out your dictionary and look up the difference between Test and Tempt...*

OK.
---tempt \Tempt\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Tempted; p. pr. & vb. n. Tempting.] [OE. tempten, tenten, from OF. tempter, tenter, F. tenter, fr. L. tentare, temptare, to handle, feel, attack, to try, put to the test, urge, freq. from tendere, tentum, and tensum, to stretch. See Thin, and cf. Attempt, Tend, Taunt, Tent a pavilion, Tent to probe.]
1. To put to trial; to prove; to test; to try.---

Yup. It's a pretty big difference, alright.

Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God...
(Deuteronomy 6:16, KJV).

*Bottom line on questioning:
Prov 2:1...
Prov 2:11 Discretion will guard you,
Understanding will watch over you, *

Typical. Not one peep about questions.
Here's the real bottom line about questions.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
(Genesis 3:1, KJV).

The first question in the Bible.

 

[lixluke]

Doth that meaneth that yon serpant useth most subtle tricks to manipulate thine humans?

 

[ashura]

This thread might be 5 years old, but I'm thankful it was resurrected just to read the "People who follow God don't get AIDS/into car crashes" line. :bravo:

 

[lixluke]

Is it true that people who follow God don't get AIDS or into car crashes? People who follow God get killed by Atheterrorists.