the belgian flap 1989 - the skeptical analysis (1)
- Thread starter spookz
- Start date
- Status
in post by Wes:
/A little more about FTL and mass. The mass of an object traveling at near light speeds does not increase IN ITS FRAME OF REFERENCE. If you were on a vehicle travelling a steady .999c (not accelerating) you would not feel more massive and neither would the vehicle.
That is exactly my understanding.
/If the vehicle was being pushed by a force in a different frame of reference, such as a lasar beam directed from a stationary position or photons hitting a solar sail, then that force would feel the relativistic mass increase.
That is my understanding as well.
/If the vehicle were propelled by an on-board power source, it would not feel an relativistic mass increase.
Here is where I doubt you. Was this discussed in your article? My source of doubt isn't that the ship doesn't "feel" the increase, but that the ship is intrisincly linked to the space-time in which it is trying to accelerate. I would think you cannot isolate your reference frame regarding acceleration when you're trying to accelerate, because to do so you have to apply a force to something . This "something" cannot be within your reference frame as if it were, you would create a new frame of reference by accelerating with respect to the thing that is in your frame of reference. Do you know what I mean? What do you think about that?
/That does not mean the vehicle could go FTL, but relativistic mass increase is not the limiting factor if the vehicle had an on-board propulsion system.
I think that's incorrect due to what I just explained above, but maybe you can convince me otherwise.
=====================================
Let me see if I can condense my limited understanding and thoughts here. JamesR or others may certainly need to correct
some points. Special Relativity begins with a frame of reference
for the observer and another FOR for the relativistic traveler. Each
views himself, while not undergoing acceleration, to be in a rest
frame, also known as an inertial frame of reference. The laws of
physics are the same for each, and unchanged. When the Lorentz
transformations are applied, this is changed to make all calculations from one observer-independent scale, or frame. This
is when the infinities arise, such as the infinite mass applied to
the traveler approaching the speed of light. There is a modification
of Special Relativity being worked on usually called Doubly Special
Relativity. It is also known as Special Relativity with two invariant
scales. It is a work in progress, the specifics of which are not settled upon to my knowledge. Again, I only have very limited
understanding of all this. Doubly Special Relativity was created to
explain a seeming violation of Special Relativity by ultra-high-energy cosmic rays, thought to be protons. More or less,
it adds a means of calculating mass and energy from the frame of
reference of the relativistic particle. There are different versions of
DSR around, not having been completed yet. I understand the goal
of DSR is to place a limit on the amount of mass and energy increases due to relativistic speeds, not the present infinity. At least some of the models do not restrict a particle's velocity to c.
A google search for Doubly Special Relativity will return results.
Here is a link to one of the papers by Giovanni Amelino-Camelia.
It is just the abstract, you will have to download the paper.
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0207049
/A little more about FTL and mass. The mass of an object traveling at near light speeds does not increase IN ITS FRAME OF REFERENCE. If you were on a vehicle travelling a steady .999c (not accelerating) you would not feel more massive and neither would the vehicle.
That is exactly my understanding.
/If the vehicle was being pushed by a force in a different frame of reference, such as a lasar beam directed from a stationary position or photons hitting a solar sail, then that force would feel the relativistic mass increase.
That is my understanding as well.
/If the vehicle were propelled by an on-board power source, it would not feel an relativistic mass increase.
Here is where I doubt you. Was this discussed in your article? My source of doubt isn't that the ship doesn't "feel" the increase, but that the ship is intrisincly linked to the space-time in which it is trying to accelerate. I would think you cannot isolate your reference frame regarding acceleration when you're trying to accelerate, because to do so you have to apply a force to something . This "something" cannot be within your reference frame as if it were, you would create a new frame of reference by accelerating with respect to the thing that is in your frame of reference. Do you know what I mean? What do you think about that?
/That does not mean the vehicle could go FTL, but relativistic mass increase is not the limiting factor if the vehicle had an on-board propulsion system.
I think that's incorrect due to what I just explained above, but maybe you can convince me otherwise.
=====================================
Let me see if I can condense my limited understanding and thoughts here. JamesR or others may certainly need to correct
some points. Special Relativity begins with a frame of reference
for the observer and another FOR for the relativistic traveler. Each
views himself, while not undergoing acceleration, to be in a rest
frame, also known as an inertial frame of reference. The laws of
physics are the same for each, and unchanged. When the Lorentz
transformations are applied, this is changed to make all calculations from one observer-independent scale, or frame. This
is when the infinities arise, such as the infinite mass applied to
the traveler approaching the speed of light. There is a modification
of Special Relativity being worked on usually called Doubly Special
Relativity. It is also known as Special Relativity with two invariant
scales. It is a work in progress, the specifics of which are not settled upon to my knowledge. Again, I only have very limited
understanding of all this. Doubly Special Relativity was created to
explain a seeming violation of Special Relativity by ultra-high-energy cosmic rays, thought to be protons. More or less,
it adds a means of calculating mass and energy from the frame of
reference of the relativistic particle. There are different versions of
DSR around, not having been completed yet. I understand the goal
of DSR is to place a limit on the amount of mass and energy increases due to relativistic speeds, not the present infinity. At least some of the models do not restrict a particle's velocity to c.
A google search for Doubly Special Relativity will return results.
Here is a link to one of the papers by Giovanni Amelino-Camelia.
It is just the abstract, you will have to download the paper.
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0207049
Q
Qorl
Guest
spookz said:
DO WE NEED MORE PROOF FOR ALIEN LIFE!!! Not a question.
SKEPTIC or NONE BELIEVERS or THINKERS WILL SAY;
Thousands of witnesses, including dozens of gendarmes (national police) and officers of the Belgian Air Force have a DELUSION. Everybody is sick with mental disorders, they all have a SCHIZOPHRENIA, just like QORL.
It's just schizophrenia, not "a" schizophrenia. And Qorl, you claim to be the alien messiah. That is not a normal thing to do.Qorl said:they all have a SCHIZOPHRENIA, just like QORL.
Theres this new thread locking craze going about, It started when the trolling became so unbearable to so many people that it had to be acted on swiftly. This means all threads that have broken into a slanging match will now be terminated post hence.
- Status