The Atheist's Wager . . .

[water]

Why not do good deeds just because they're good deeds and will help people!

Really, and you can actually DO that, *consistently*?

Ah well. I guess that's what religion does to you - turns you into ultimately selfish people.

It's not like one can live for or instead of others. Living for oneself makes one ultimately selfish.

 

[water]

"It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him."

What is not said here, but one often finds out a little later in a conversation with a person who says things like above: the implication that the religious are religious only because they want the reward in heaven. That the religious are like Pavlovian dogs, conditioned and trained, mindless, and only after their reward, sweeping down everything and everyone that comes to their path.

Surely, if we consider the Inquisition, the forceful conversions, the religious elitism to be *the* truest examples of what it means to believe in God and have faith in God, then saying that the religious are good to people only because of the reward they expect in heaven, fits.

But are we really to consider the Inquisition, the forceful conversions, the religious elitism to be *the* truest examples of what it means to believe in God and have faith in God??



* * *

So? If there isn't a god, they still wasted a portion of their lives praying and worshiping.

This is not a fair statement. It is like saying that there is no point in doing your bed, as you will undo it when you go to sleep, and will have to do it again next morning. Or that there is no point in washing yourself, as you will sooner or later get dirty again. Or that there is no point in brushing your teeth, as one day they will fall out anyway, so why bother ...

 

[cato]

spuriousmonkey---"You should live your life the way you think it ought to be lived and then live with the consequences. Otherwise you just live a big lie."

you can't just live life however you want, what about murderers? if I want to hijack some nukes and end the world is that what I should do?

you should live life how you see fit, within social contract ethics. if you don’t step on anybodies toes do whatever you want.

 

[MarcAC]

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/wager.html ... Thoughts?

The most obvious problems with Pascal's Wager are:

How do you know which God to believe in?...

Which God was Pascal referring to? Notwithstanding that; regardless of religious orientation - since Adrian was so keen to including decision matrices in the analysis - the theist still stands a better chance if any god exists even if one was randomly (not reccomended of course) chosen.

God is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience?

Did Pascal's Wager state anything about believing in God out of convenience or just to get into heaven? If you believe in God you will seek to know God. Through your quest you will grow to love God. Ultimately you will want to be with God than live in a meaningless irrationally rational existence with atheists.

If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers.

This is a purely personal perspective and may have no application to the life of any other individual. Speaking of life; it seems religious people tend to live longer - not a waste of time after all... it seems you get more time.

Most atheists disbelieve simply because they know of no compelling evidence to suggest that any sort of god exists. If you want an atheist to believe, show her some good evidence, don't just say it's in her best interests to believe even if there is no god. A person cannot choose to sincerely believe in something, just because it is pragmatic to do so.

What is "good" evidence? How does the atheist decide what evidence is "good" as opposed to "bad"? They choose? You may be surprised how much your will affects what you believe and what you don't.

It is quite insulting. It amounts to a thinly veiled threat, little better than saying "Believe in my God or He'll send you to Hell" (in fact, this is often the form it is presented in). Also, the theist making this threat assumes that the atheist believes there is a Hell or a God to send her there in the first place. If you don't believe in Hell anyway, it's not a scary thing to be threatened with - a bit like saying "If you don't start believing in unicorns, one will trample you to death while you're sleeping." Who would be worried by that?

That's why it's not a threat. It's a well constructed logical argument.

It is often self-refuting, depending on the person's description of God. If you believe that God will forgive anyone for anything, or judge people purely on how they lived their life and not what they believed, or that everyone gets to Heaven regardless (unless maybe they were genocidal cannibal serial killers), then the Wager is meaningless. You might as well say "Believe in God, or you'll... erm... go to Heaven anyway." In such a case, it doesn't make a scrap of difference whether the person believes or not.

Exactly; and quite naturally no one believe such a thing. How can you put all the stuff just stated in a paragraph intended to be rationally (as an atheist) coherrent? You live your life based on what you believe. When you believe, seek to know and love God then you will accept God's forgiveness. He can't force what you don't want on you; same goes for heaven.

It is best to first comprehensively and consistently dismiss Pascal's Wager before proposing an anithetical version. Whoever typed that thing was possessed! I mean... look at the url.

NIV Acts 17

[24] “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. [26] From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. [27] God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. [28] ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’​

 

[spidergoat]

The world can't be made a better place, it can only get worse. We inherited a world that was perfect, and every problem in it is the result of someone's idea of a solution.

God supposedly manifests perfect justice. That means that whatever judgements you recieve as a result of your actions you will yourself acknowledge voluntarily that they are just and fair.

So, there is no reason to worry.

 

[BelieveTheLie]

I agree, Athelwulf.

I personally find religion to be a sceurity blanket, and one that I can live without. I firmly believe in doing the right thing becuase it is the right thing, not because a "God" says that is how you should live.

I also find that many religious people lose sight of doing good things when they become blinded by religion. For Example, some Religions disapprove of homosexuality. If all people are God's children, as these religious folks believe, then aren't homosexuals, in theory, God's children as well? Yet some people, becuase their religion tells them to, discriminate against homosexuals. How is this morally right?

I feel that if you do the right thing, not because you will go to heaven, but just because it is the right thing, then you are OK in life. And although I do not believe in God, if there is one, and he "sends you to hell" for not believing in him, even if you have been a good person all your life, well, honestly, how messed up is that? You don't have to be religious to be a good person.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

BelieveTheLie: I personally find religion to be a sceurity blanket, and one that I can live without. I firmly believe in doing the right thing becuase it is the right thing, not because a "God" says that is how you should live.

I also find that many religious people lose sight of doing good things when they become blinded by religion. For Example, some Religions disapprove of homosexuality. If all people are God's children, as these religious folks believe, then aren't homosexuals, in theory, God's children as well? Yet some people, becuase their religion tells them to, discriminate against homosexuals. How is this morally right?

I feel that if you do the right thing, not because you will go to heaven, but just because it is the right thing, then you are OK in life. And although I do not believe in God, if there is one, and he "sends you to hell" for not believing in him, even if you have been a good person all your life, well, honestly, how messed up is that? You don't have to be religious to be a good person.
*************
M*W: Welcome to the wonderful and zany world of sciforums! I understand what you are saying. I am an atheist. I wasn't an atheist when I came to sciforums, but I quickly learned that there is no god and there is no salvation. Atheists do good because they want to, not because it will get them into some kind of heaven. I used to be christian, but I realized it was a false promise of salvation.

I'm glad you came to sciforums. You will find many truths here.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Athelwulf,

Right there in black-and-white.

I'm afraid that is not a wager, it is simply wishfull thinking/fantasy.
In this fantasy there is nothing to lose or gain, no winners, no losers.

Can you give an example of how life could be lived as though God didn't exist?

So? If there isn't a god, they still wasted a portion of their lives praying and worshiping.

And you're such an expert on life, that you know what a wasted life is?

Not for not believing in a god, but for doing good.

Stop shifting the goal posts, you said;

....He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him."

But anyhoo!
How would you know what good was if you lived your life as if God doesn't exist (which IMO is impossible)?
Who would decide?
How do you know it would be satisfactory to God should you realise after death He is existent?

No pretense here.

You make no sense. I could tell you to stop pretending that unicorns don't exist.

Then how is it possible to live your life as though God doesn't exist?
You are atheist, yet you are obsessed with God and religion like all the other atheists in this forum.
As for unicorns (*sigh*) I neither believe or disbelieve in their existence, I don't actually give a shit. Which is why you will never catch me on "does unicorns exist forums", if they exist. This should be your position concerning God if you were a true atheist. Why is it not?

Same with me and this God of yers.

Then what are you doing in the religious section of these forums? Why bother to waste your time? If i was atheist you wouldn't catch me here for toffee.

Don't think that everyone somehow knows there's some god out there, but just is pretending.

Some knows, some don't.

Jan Ardena.