The American Jihad in its crib?

Are such camp morally justified and practically correct?


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Darwinism is evolution, although no one calls it that anymore. Neo-Darwinism is the proper term. But what is it about Darwin's discovery you object to?

Darwinism is not evolution, the idea of evolution existed pre-Darwin as I attempted to demonstrate in post 18. If we're attributing to Darwin that concept, then we've already demonstrated the idea of historical mangling I'm attempting to convey. I have no personal disagreement to evolution or Darwinism. With time history gets cloudy, ideas become misattributed this happened to religion as well...it happens to everything.

In the case of religion ideas are misplaced for personal vendetta, in science you see anachronisms for the sake of what...pride?
 
Are you guys insane? You consider it morally justified to mentally abuse, torture and indoctrinate children into a hateful, stupid, orthodox, unyielding and incorrect ideology?
 
Evolution by natural selection was first pointed out by Darwin and Wallace.

In the modern scientific context, that's true.

But just as a point of interest, the ancient Greek philosopher Empedocles (approx 495-435 BCE) seems to have suggested something like it in his book 'On Nature'. (The book doesn't exist any longer, but some existing ancient Greek texts contain quotes from it.)

Empedocles imagined two cosmic forces that he called 'love' and 'strife' (attraction and repulsion). In biology, he imagined all kinds of body parts forming and combining through the power of love, basically at random. So all varieties of bizarre animals formed, some with legs sticking out of their noses, some with eyes on the soles of their feet. Then natural selection eliminated the forms that weren't efficient at survival in some ecological niche, leaving us with the highly-adapted forms that we observe today.

Empedocles' theory does kind of anticipate Darwin and Wallace to a limited extent, but it also suffers from the same kind of difficulty that Darwin and Wallace encountered. None of them knew about DNA, genomes or about developmental genetics. They weren't clear on the genotype/phenotype distinction or about how heritable information is encoded and passed on between generations.
 
Darwinism is not evolution, the idea of evolution existed pre-Darwin as I attempted to demonstrate in post 18. If we're attributing to Darwin that concept, then we've already demonstrated the idea of historical mangling I'm attempting to convey. I have no personal disagreement to evolution or Darwinism. With time history gets cloudy, ideas become misattributed this happened to religion as well...it happens to everything.

In the case of religion ideas are misplaced for personal vendetta, in science you see anachronisms for the sake of what...pride?

No one knew about evolution before Darwin. There was the observation that species can change, but that's not the same. And they certainly had no concept of the general mechanism. Darwin's idea was revolutionary, probably the biggest breakthrough in all of science after Newton's laws of motion.
 
Are you guys insane? You consider it morally justified to mentally abuse, torture and indoctrinate children into a hateful, stupid, orthodox, unyielding and incorrect ideology?

I don't think it rises to the level of torture. It's within the freedoms granted to American citizens. Religious freedom is the whole point of this country.
 
Similarly people today misappropriate concepts of evolution to Darwin which he could have not possibly understood.

I'm not sure what you are talking about there.

Obviously there are ideas about how evolution and natural selection work on the genome level that Darwin could have known nothing about. It's what's termed the 'modern synthesis' or 'Neodarwinism'. I don't recall anyone putting those ideas about gene expression and whatnot into Darwin's mouth. Instead, it's part of the continued extension and development of the idea of natural selection in light of the last 150 years worth of work in genetics.

This namely because he stands as an icon to atheists for his dispelling of a transient Lutheran principal of static species (which really only came into fashion post- Martin Luther).

I think that you may be overestimating the role of Luther in this.

In my opinion, the reason why traditional religion reacted badly to Darwin are two-fold. First, Darwin treated humans as another species of animal, derived by evolution from earlier animals, and not as a special creation. Humanity was moved into the natural realm and no longer stood separate and apart from it. That's where the earliest criticism of his ideas often arose, against the idea than man had arisen from "monkees".

And second, Darwin's theory kind of emasculated natural theology's design argument. In a way, one can say that Darwin unintentionally created modern atheism. Prior to his day, the design argument seemed almost unanswerable. European intellectuals were forced to hypothesize an initial designer, even while they questioned the special revelations purportedly contained in the Bible. So they often gravitated towards deism. After Darwin, it no longer seemed that the functional adaptation observed in the biological world required an intelligent designer, so intellectuals felt freer to become flat-out atheists.

In 300 years the the 100 difference between our understanding today and our understanding in 1900 will be just as blurry as 1500 and 1600 are today to the average individual.

I think that the twentieth century will be famous for the appearance of molecular genetics. Historians of science 300 years from now will study that development and write books and papers on it.

The idea of animal evolution, however was not. Immanuel Kant wrote 80 years earlier "an orang-outang or a chimpanzee may develop the organs which serve for walking, grasping objects, and speaking-in short, that lie may evolve the structure of man, with an organ for the use of reason, which shall gradually develop itself by social culture". Darwin's own father made claims remarkably similar decades earlier.

It's true that the idea of biological evolution is older than Darwin. Many people had already written about it. (Buffon, Lamarck etc.) Charles Darwin's own ancestor Erasmus Darwin had been an evolutionist. What Charles Darwin and Wallace did was produce a breakthrough theory about how evolution took place, about how it worked. (By natural selection.)

What was NOT novel about Darwin's theory was natural selection and the ability to mutate advantageous traits.

Not novel? It's conceivable that a determined intellectual historian can find examples of people proposing similar ideas even earlier. I pointed to Empedocles in an earlier post. But Darwin and Wallace do seem to have been the first ones who really developed the idea and are the ones who introduced the idea into the mainstream of science.

However, even since 1860 our knowledge of this has far exceeded his relatively simple idea. There's no reason for us to assume it won't be as trivial a fact in 300 years as Newton's -- yes it will be roughly true, though primitive.

I don't think that anyone knowledgeable dismisses Newton's dynamics as "trivial". It probably is true that evolutionary biologists will, in fact already do, have little reason to consult Darwin's texts. They consult more modern texts that incorporate what's been learned in the last 150 years into Darwin's natural selection framework. Modern physicists don't typically consult Newton's 'Principia' either. But that's not a suggestion that Newton or Darwin weren't important, even transformational, figures in the history of science.
 
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I don't think it rises to the level of torture. It's within the freedoms granted to American citizens. Religious freedom is the whole point of this country.

Sure it is. But this is exploiting that freedom in a way to cause anguish and suffering to kids due to many things which are demonstrably incorrect or unsupported and worse yet, it closes them off to secularism, free speach and science - its a recipe for disaster.
 
I'm not sure what you are talking about there.

Obviously there are ideas about how evolution and natural selection work on the genome level that Darwin could have known nothing about. It's what's termed the 'modern synthesis' or 'Neodarwinism'. I don't recall anyone putting those ideas about gene expression and whatnot into Darwin's mouth. Instead, it's part of the continued extension and development of the idea of natural selection in light of the last 150 years worth of work in genetics.



I think that you may be overestimating the role of Luther in this.

In my opinion, the reason why traditional religion reacted badly to Darwin are two-fold. First, Darwin treated humans as another species of animal, derived by evolution from earlier animals, and not as a special creation. Humanity was moved into the natural realm and no longer stood separate and apart from it. That's where the earliest criticism of his ideas often arose, against the idea than man had arisen from "monkees".

And second, Darwin's theory kind of emasculated natural theology's design argument. In a way, one can say that Darwin unintentionally created modern atheism. Prior to his day, the design argument seemed almost unanswerable. European intellectuals were forced to hypothesize an initial designer, even while they questioned the special revelations purportedly contained in the Bible. So they often gravitated towards deism. After Darwin, it no longer seemed that the functional adaptation observed in the biological world required an intelligent designer, so intellectuals felt freer to become flat-out atheists.



I think that the twentieth century will be famous for the appearance of molecular genetics. Historians of science 300 years from now will study that development and write books and papers on it.



It's true that the idea of biological evolution is older than Darwin. Many people had already written about it. (Buffon, Lamarck etc.) Charles Darwin's own ancestor Erasmus Darwin had been an evolutionist. What Charles Darwin and Wallace did was produce a breakthrough theory about how evolution took place, about how it worked. (By natural selection.)



Not novel? It's conceivable that a determined intellectual historian can find examples of people proposing similar ideas even earlier. I pointed to Empedocles in an earlier post. But Darwin and Wallace do seem to have been the first ones who really developed the idea and are the ones who introduced the idea into the mainstream of science.



I don't think that anyone knowledgeable dismisses Newton's dynamics as "trivial". It probably is true that evolutionary biologists will, in fact already do, have little reason to consult Darwin's texts. They consult more modern texts that incorporate what's been learned in the last 150 years into Darwin's natural selection framework. Modern physicists don't typically consult Newton's 'Principia' either. But that's not a suggestion that Newton or Darwin weren't important, even transformational, figures in the history of science.

No one knew about evolution before Darwin. There was the observation that species can change, but that's not the same. And they certainly had no concept of the general mechanism. Darwin's idea was revolutionary, probably the biggest breakthrough in all of science after Newton's laws of motion.

Certainly I'll concede to knowing less about evolution and biology, I work in computer science and have little background in biology. This whole discussion stemmed from me saying -- it's no more wrong to torture your kids with christian philosophy than in darwinistic theory. I said this because in 300 years both will be equally true and untrue. As we've seen Christian evolve over thousands of years to something which it never resembled...we'll see similar anachronisms in Darwinian thought. Barring some sort of torture there's nothing wrong with the behavior. That said -- I have no interest in Christianity either and couldn't be cited as a theologian. Now perhaps every single word I have written is wrong, which is typically not the case-- or the internet is full of contrarians who couldn't possibly recognize the context of my statement.

Now Yazata is clearly more familiar with biology and they'd likely disagree with my slaughtering of their expertise in my simile. Still, if you could discuss the root issue instead and ignore my ignorance, that would be nice :)
 
Sure it is. But this is exploiting that freedom in a way to cause anguish and suffering to kids due to many things which are demonstrably incorrect or unsupported and worse yet, it closes them off to secularism, free speach and science - its a recipe for disaster.

People are free to be incorrect.
 
People are free to be incorrect.

Those poor kids...
If God existed, these people would already have been smoten/smitten. They are not.Therefore, God does not exist. Hey, I got a new proof against the existence of God!
But seriously, isn't this abusing the freedom a little too much for the children?
 
The main problem is connected to the liberal propaganda machine which includes the main stream media and Hollywood. These paint a nasty picture of the USA since this sells and justifies all their "paid experts" acting self righteous. Media is one of America's leading exports, causing foreign people to see the USA in a negative light out of proportion with the reality of everyday life in USA. The jihad fights against this imaginary foe.

To test this theory, ask people outside America to describe the USA, based on the information that get from American media and movies. Liberalism is based on mass manipulation which is why these two masters of manipulation (media and Hollywood) prefer the democratic party; birds of a feather. You can also add the lawyers to this support. They too are not noted for their honesty and fit right in. The thieves stick together and paint the USA in their own images. The Jihad fights this demon thinking this represents all of USA.

For example, the attack on 911 was against the world trade center. This symbolized capitalism. Which party also fights capitalism with propaganda to create a distorted picture of reality using media, Hollywood and lawyers?
I agree entirely even though, as a Democrat, I might not be as conservative as yourself.

Here is an interestingly revelant news item:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/07/u...und-the-world.html?_r=3&partner=MYWAY&ei=5065

Brough,
civilization-oveview dot com
 
Those poor kids...
If God existed, these people would already have been smoten/smitten. They are not.Therefore, God does not exist. Hey, I got a new proof against the existence of God!
But seriously, isn't this abusing the freedom a little too much for the children?

Jesus camp is probably within the law, but I'm not so sure about this:
Kidnapped for Christ
 
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