Americans revere their flag , Americans take pride in their flag to such an extent that it is sacred to the American identity , so why is it worthless ? . What would happen if you burnt the American flag in public ? Nothing ! nothing will happen to you because it is not an illegal act . In fact if I was to walk up and on to your porch and take your personal flag and burn it , I would be charged with trespass and burning your flag the charge would be damaging or vandalizing your property not an act of sacrilegious desecration of a sacred symbol . If Americans were serious , an act such as burning the flag must have a separate serious charge !.If you were to deface , misuse or vandalize a Corporate logo or trademark there are many laws under which you can be charged with even sued by that company in court ! Which means these logos and trademarks are far more sacred than the flag because their desecration is illegal . So you can burn the flag to your hearts content because that is what US lawmakers want you to do because the American flag is meaningless, because when you burn the flag you burn cloth nothing more nothing less . If you want to make a statement that will be heard burn a corporate logo !
The American flag
- Thread starter Brian Foley
- Start date
Did you hear a few years ago, congress tried to garner support for a ban on flag burning? Failed misirably. The hawks tried to not define the flag so well, iirc, so that nearly every red, white, and blue item was to be held sacrosanct. Not to mention that the US armed forces burn the colors in ceremony.
Reverence of the flag is deceptive it is only afterall a symbol , true patriots would defend their brother and sister fellow citizens against undemocratic encroachment from other fellow citizens .
Name me one war that was fought solely in the cause of freedom and not imperial avarice ?
Justaride I don't want to play the word game with you but I want to point something out real quick. The qoute talks about dying for a flag......The wording is important because while the advocateds are saying they would die for a flag ..what they are really saying is that they would kill for a flag. The wording when u change die to kill doesn't make it quite as romantic anymore. While there are many layers to debate on when killing may be reasonable or non reasonable it is misleading to present the issue of dying for a flag, cause or country when in fact the advocates are advocating killing as opposed to dying.
As a footnote I am not saying that you are being misleading as you just threw out a qoute but I find it troubling when people debate what cause is worth "dying" for when they are actually advocating killing for that cause.
Brian are you saying asking or suggesting if it is ethical to burn the American flag. And if so where? in America, in Canada, in the middle east? in the privacy of ones own home? at a frat party? outside a state capital building while protesting an American policy? I am just asking because I am confused by the purpose of the post...good to see u again....
As a footnote I am not saying that you are being misleading as you just threw out a qoute but I find it troubling when people debate what cause is worth "dying" for when they are actually advocating killing for that cause.
Brian are you saying asking or suggesting if it is ethical to burn the American flag. And if so where? in America, in Canada, in the middle east? in the privacy of ones own home? at a frat party? outside a state capital building while protesting an American policy? I am just asking because I am confused by the purpose of the post...good to see u again....
The point about my thread is that the common American people love their nation and one of the ways in which they express this pride is in displaying their flag . It is my pointing to Americas plutocratic leadership which values corporate logo's over the symbol of their nation . When Americans burn their own flag as a protest against their own govt policies it really is a meaningless protest because they identify no individual or organisation . Because of the plutocratic nature of the govt , which serves its wealthy corporate masters it would be a lot more advisable for the American public to burn corporate logos in public . Thereby demonstrating to the ruling elite that we the American people have identified who you are and we dont agree with your policies you are enacting in our name .robtex said:
thanks it is nice to wantedrobtex said:
wow Brian I understand now...Wow that is a powerful idea. And one that makes a lot of sense. If one were to burn corporate logs in and attract press it would certainly create a sense of urgency on behalf to that coporation. You make a great point by burning the flag over a policy that we don't like we are in fact letting our goverment be a shield for that what really makes unhappy.
In your example lets say we protest our war in iraq. burning our flag while it makes a statement of some diluted degree does not have near the impact as if we, as you said, burn lockheed martin's logo boy would that get a reaction.
interesting concept Brian......what made you think of it....?
In your example lets say we protest our war in iraq. burning our flag while it makes a statement of some diluted degree does not have near the impact as if we, as you said, burn lockheed martin's logo boy would that get a reaction.
interesting concept Brian......what made you think of it....?
Brian,
I understand, and agree with your reasoning behind this, but your execution leaves something to be deired.
It is not illegal to burn a corporate logo either.
It is also not illegal to walk around with a placard with an enhanced logo (such as burning, or the big red "No Smoking" circle over it).
It is illegal to use a corporate logo for your own monetary gain simply because it is a registered trademark.
It is someone's property.
It's really no different than protecting an author's right over his words by applying for copyright registration.
Like I said, I agree with you.
I don't think the flag should be sacred (though I am unclear if YOU do).
I do, however, think that people are much more loyal to the corporations that own them.
I also think that the corporate logos sre more representative of this nation than the flag is.
Then again, why shouldn't they be?
The corporations have the politicians AND the people in their pockets.
People bitch and moan about corporations becoming increasingly more powerful in the government, but even without their ties to the government, they still hold more sway over the average american and american culture and ideals at large.
Seems fitting that corporate logos are revered more than the logo of the corporate whores is.
Judging by their actions, it seems that's what the people want, anyway.
I understand, and agree with your reasoning behind this, but your execution leaves something to be deired.
It is not illegal to burn a corporate logo either.
It is also not illegal to walk around with a placard with an enhanced logo (such as burning, or the big red "No Smoking" circle over it).
It is illegal to use a corporate logo for your own monetary gain simply because it is a registered trademark.
It is someone's property.
It's really no different than protecting an author's right over his words by applying for copyright registration.
Like I said, I agree with you.
I don't think the flag should be sacred (though I am unclear if YOU do).
I do, however, think that people are much more loyal to the corporations that own them.
I also think that the corporate logos sre more representative of this nation than the flag is.
Then again, why shouldn't they be?
The corporations have the politicians AND the people in their pockets.
People bitch and moan about corporations becoming increasingly more powerful in the government, but even without their ties to the government, they still hold more sway over the average american and american culture and ideals at large.
Seems fitting that corporate logos are revered more than the logo of the corporate whores is.
Judging by their actions, it seems that's what the people want, anyway.
That was fought by the now mature American native business elite to take control of their own trade from their taxing colonial masters the British business elite .tiassa said:
That was the French Noveau Riche Class the Bourgeois removing the old aristocratic guard thereby consoldating their hold on the economy .tiassa said:
Again the US business class seeing its opportunity when its economic competitors such as France and Britain were knocked out jumped into the fray to gain control of these lucrative markets from their imperial European masters .tiassa said:
Just over the years watching one protest after another against any goverment go nowhere got me thinking . Take the protests against the US govt by the American youth over the Vietnam War these protests took on a huge scale , yet in 1968 the Americans voted Nixon in a landslide and that war carried for another 4 years . What if the American people mobilized and said to the American military/industrial complex which was making a mint out the Vietnam War that “we blame you for killing our young son’s in this war , and we are going to arrest your CEO’s place them in prison , confiscate your wealth and break up your wealthy corporations as punishment ” that war would of ended very quickly . German corporations made a mint out of the holocaust , Siemans , Thysens , IG Farben and other German corporations owned the Aushwitz complex , the Nazi govt paid German rail companies to transport victims to these death centres . Not one German corporate CEO stood trial after the war only Alfred Krupp who was released due to infirmity . Take the current corporate free for all in Iraq , GI’s earn a basic wage whilst private security firm employees make a packet .robtex said:
Not sure how many protestors have been charged with criminal damage of Mc Donald outlets namely defacing the big Yellow M during the McDeath trial in the mid 90’s .one_raven said:
I was just making a point that if the flag is revered by patriotic people , should it not also be encoded in law as a sacred symbol ? And if no why ?one_raven said:
True but it does not give these entities the right to interfere in your life and subvert your freedom for the sake of their well being these corporations should be limited and controlled by the govt to prevent misuse of their power .one_raven said:
Out of sight out of mind .one_raven said:
The property or the image you know there is a big difference.
If the protestors knocked down their flag pole it would have had the exact same repurcussions.
I completely agree.
Like I said, I agree with your sentiment, I just think your unfair comparison takes weight away from your argument and makes it invalid.
More of an editorial thing, I guess.
I was more impressed with nelson's speach on the simpsons, something like "so burn the flag if you must, by while you're at it you better burn a few other things (lists luxuries) because none of that could exist without 6 white stripes, 7 red stripes, and a hell of alot of stars!".
I think nelson had a fair argument. If you were a native american who lived on the prairies hunting big horn sheep and you were irritated with the deterioration of your habitat, and consequent deterioration of your way of life, then you would have every right to be burning american flags, but while you're suckling from the teat of lady liberty you're a bit of a shitbag to be burning flags.
I think nelson had a fair argument. If you were a native american who lived on the prairies hunting big horn sheep and you were irritated with the deterioration of your habitat, and consequent deterioration of your way of life, then you would have every right to be burning american flags, but while you're suckling from the teat of lady liberty you're a bit of a shitbag to be burning flags.
Dr Lou Natic said:
The republic for which America stands was built by people dissenting against their current government.
The whole point was to create a system in which you would be able to speak your mind against the governemt, not fear your government.
A system in which the government answers to the people, not the other way around.
A system in which the people had an active voice in their government.
The ultimate show of American patriotism is to make your grievances be known because it is the people of the country you care about, not the government.
The flag is not a symbol of a people, but a symbol of a government.
The 13 stripes are the original 13 colonies, the 50 stars are the current 50 states.
Allegiance and unquestioning reverence to a government is not only fool-hardy, it's downright dangerous.
The flag should not be revered because the government should not be revered.
The people should be revered and the government should serve and reflect the people.
Because of all that, there is nothing at all wrong with burning the flag to express one's discontent with the government.
One raven.
But I still dislike the idea of people complaining about the government whilst getting fat off of it. Regardless of how america's supposed to work, I can't quite put my finger on why but it's just... unsightly.
My newly acquired knowledge just means I now also dislike the idea of america.
It's juvenile. It really does come off as children defeating their parents and then making the only rule is that there are no rules.
Its decadent to the point of being obnoxious, obviously from a time before the concept of being seen from the outside was taken into consideration. Which probably explains why america refused to acknowledge other countries for so long, they were ashamed of the confetti still stuck in their hair from the huge secret party they'd been having.
Now the rise in extreme libertarianism is this shame finally takeing its hold as the futility of ignoring the world becomes apparent. They're overly apologetic like the guy who finds his buddy was beaten in the alley while he was upstairs having a 3some with supermodels.
It also might explain the disproportianate number of religious people for such a rich nation. Americans feel sinfull, so they have blind faith in god in a desperate attempt to scrub away the shame and feel "good" despite being the spawn of such flagrantly sinister ideals.
There's alot of shame flying around those free states.
Only the shameless right wingers want to party on as if they're still invisible, and you'll notice right wingers are easily baited into proclaiming that the opinions of non-americans aren't worth anything.
This is the mindset that would be required to be content with america. The concept inherently calls for a nation of elitist rebels who are against the rest of the world.
Which could work aesthetically if they were openly villainous, but you also get the righteous holier than thou good guy impression, which clashes sickeningly.
I confess to ignorance.
But I still dislike the idea of people complaining about the government whilst getting fat off of it. Regardless of how america's supposed to work, I can't quite put my finger on why but it's just... unsightly.
My newly acquired knowledge just means I now also dislike the idea of america.
It's juvenile. It really does come off as children defeating their parents and then making the only rule is that there are no rules.
Its decadent to the point of being obnoxious, obviously from a time before the concept of being seen from the outside was taken into consideration. Which probably explains why america refused to acknowledge other countries for so long, they were ashamed of the confetti still stuck in their hair from the huge secret party they'd been having.
Now the rise in extreme libertarianism is this shame finally takeing its hold as the futility of ignoring the world becomes apparent. They're overly apologetic like the guy who finds his buddy was beaten in the alley while he was upstairs having a 3some with supermodels.
It also might explain the disproportianate number of religious people for such a rich nation. Americans feel sinfull, so they have blind faith in god in a desperate attempt to scrub away the shame and feel "good" despite being the spawn of such flagrantly sinister ideals.
There's alot of shame flying around those free states.
Only the shameless right wingers want to party on as if they're still invisible, and you'll notice right wingers are easily baited into proclaiming that the opinions of non-americans aren't worth anything.
This is the mindset that would be required to be content with america. The concept inherently calls for a nation of elitist rebels who are against the rest of the world.
Which could work aesthetically if they were openly villainous, but you also get the righteous holier than thou good guy impression, which clashes sickeningly.
JustARIde, I'm a huge Bill Hicks fan (rest his soul) and that is one of his best quotes.
THe fact that is is mopre fo a crime to deface corporate logos than to burn tyhe flag shows what the United States is all about. In Canada, it is illegal to burn our flag. Honestly, the majority of our population agrees with major political decisions (like going to the bullshit war) and we generally love our country. It's the the flag that people are burning, it's what the flag represents. America is not a free country yet the flag is supposed to represent it. BUrn the fucking flag is you want to. People have the right to be angry. I'd rather see millions of flags burned out of anger and hate than someone killed.
THe fact that is is mopre fo a crime to deface corporate logos than to burn tyhe flag shows what the United States is all about. In Canada, it is illegal to burn our flag. Honestly, the majority of our population agrees with major political decisions (like going to the bullshit war) and we generally love our country. It's the the flag that people are burning, it's what the flag represents. America is not a free country yet the flag is supposed to represent it. BUrn the fucking flag is you want to. People have the right to be angry. I'd rather see millions of flags burned out of anger and hate than someone killed.
I wouldnt mind hearing it .JustARide said: