The absurdity of philosophical conclusions wrt religion

[spidergoat]

Are you saying that God is behind atheistic spiritual practices too? As if doctors may prevent polio in one person with leaches, in another with a vaccine.

 

[lightgigantic]

Are you saying that God is behind atheistic spiritual practices too?

yup
there's even scriptural references to it

As if doctors may prevent polio in one person with leaches, in another with a vaccine.

more like how one patient gets sugar coated pills and the other one takes doctor's instructions as they are

 

[spidergoat]

Not Buddhist scriptures.

 

[lightgigantic]

Not Buddhist scriptures.

It would kind of defeat the purpose if there was ....

 

[spidergoat]

Right, he's hiding from Buddhists. Or maybe he's just a figment of your imagination. I don't expect to get a clear answer.

 

[wynn]

You are evading the question. There are normative cures because the disease is the same around the world.

No, the disease is not simply "the same around the world."

This becomes especially obvious once we look at chronic ailments - there are so many factors involved that it is impossible to figure out a single course of treatment that would be applicable to every person who has said chronic ailment.

There is no normative practice for finding out the nature of God, what he wants from us, because there is no normative religion. There isn't even a normative goal in religion, some of them seek personal enlightenment, and others seek to implement the will of a god.

One thing you might have learned in Buddhism is that there are "a thousand Dharma gates" - the idea that a person can enter the Dharma from many directions: many kinds of people in many kinds of situations can begin to walk the Path.

It's not like, for example, poor black people or prostitutes would automatically be excluded from ever coming in contact with the Path. They can practice too. Even though externally, the Dharma practice of a poor black person, a prostitute, a king and a monk might look so different as to seem to have nothing in common and not being the same kind of practice at all.

It seems LG is making the same line of argument in regard to theism as well.



Also, you seem to be operating on the assumptions

1. All existing theistic religions are equal competitors for the truth about God.
So that on principle, Christianity is to be considered just as good as Islam or Hinduism etc. when it comes to which one has the more complete, or truer idea of God and according practice - because any one of them could be the right one.

2. Of all existing theistic religions, only one (at the exclusion of all others) or none can be the right one or true.


I think LG is presenting a far more inclusive view of theism.

 

[wynn]

And when it goes right?

You have correct deferment and performance of obligation

On principle, are outsiders capable of discerning this?

(In relation to a person wondering about which religion/group to join.)

If I read scriptures or if I follow instructions, I am still relying on my own capabilities of comprehension and action.

comprehension/discernment of what exactly?

Of what I read or hear.

Even if one places one's faith in others, one has still essentially placed one's faith in one's own discernment.

which is indeed the foundation of any act , big or small

But this contradicts what you have said earlier!

I'm talking about the necessity of faith being placed in some sort of authority beyond one's capabilities, potency or expertise. As a rule its only the severely misanthropic insane people who approach living in the world as being contextualized by nothing more than their power of being (although usually their actions bring them before the wrath of the justice system so they are forced to submit anyway)

??

"I am a good and smart person, therefore, my choice of guru is right."

depends if they had any further tools of discernment/comprehension outside of themself

But how can there be any further tools of discernment outside of oneself?

Surrender doesn't mean abandon ship - it means utilize - which is heaps more challenging and difficult than simply doing nothing and saying "I leave it up to you boss"

I think that trying to "leave it up to you boss" is the most difficult and challenging, because of all the teeth-gritting and constant anxiety such a renounciation requires. One cannot place responsibility for one's life on someone else, but nevertheless feel good.

One can act only in the present moment, and the present moment is whatever it is, however mundane, painful or unglorious it might be. Also see James' criterion for a genuine option. One can't solve a real problem virtually. One cannot act in the past, nor in the future. One cannot act in some other place than one is at, nor can one act with other resources than one presently has.
And yet theists often demand that one act with resources (mental or material) that one doesn't have.

Surrender to the theistic organization, its authority should be the last expression of your free will and individuality.

Anyone who says that just breached siddhanta

As it is, your individuality is not real individuality, it is materialistic, and not worth maintaining, therefore, you should give it up.

twice now

If you surrender to the theistic authority, and do as it tells you, you will eventually perhaps get a true individuality. Until then, you are just a worthless, mindless pawn, an expendable cog in the system."

and three times

You will need to explain why those are breaches of the siddhanta.

All that is left to him is a hope that if he grits his teeth and perseveres against all odds, at the moment of death his present personality will be destroyed and he will wake up in the spiritual world with a brand new identity, no connection whatsoever between the two.
Source

good example of application not giving the goal due to messed up theory

I don't see how it could be otherwise than as sketched up in the quote I posted.
?

Generally, I see theism (in the form of a particular tradition) as an artificial imposition on myself, and therefore, the above applies, and theistic practice according to that tradition does seem like a matter of gritting my teeth and persevering, attempting to annull whatever I currently deem my individuality.

(sambandha abhideya prayojana)

I'm not sure how this ties in here?

 

[lightgigantic]

Right, he's hiding from Buddhists.

I wasn't aware buddhists were looking for him

Or maybe he's just a figment of your imagination. I don't expect to get a clear answer.

I gave you a clear explanation - if even we can engineer placebos and sugar coated pills to achieve specific ends, why on earth do you think god can't do the same (or even better)?

 

[lightgigantic]

On principle, are outsiders capable of discerning this?

(In relation to a person wondering about which religion/group to join.)

what to speak of discerning it, they participate in it

Of what I read or hear.

bingo

But this contradicts what you have said earlier!



??

not if they are discerning their limitations

But how can there be any further tools of discernment outside of oneself?

by reading or hearing about things other than one's self

I think that trying to "leave it up to you boss" is the most difficult and challenging, because of all the teeth-gritting and constant anxiety such a renounciation requires.

Only inasmuch as sitting on your brains is difficult

One cannot place responsibility for one's life on someone else, but nevertheless feel good.

hence its an ambition that goes through cycles

One can act only in the present moment, and the present moment is whatever it is, however mundane, painful or unglorious it might be. Also see James' criterion for a genuine option. One can't solve a real problem virtually. One cannot act in the past, nor in the future. One cannot act in some other place than one is at, nor can one act with other resources than one presently has.
And yet theists often demand that one act with resources (mental or material) that one doesn't have.

spiritual life is hard but material life is impossible

You will need to explain why those are breaches of the siddhanta.

in all circumstances and at all times, one has individuality and free will (however miniscule)

I don't see how it could be otherwise than as sketched up in the quote I posted.
?

then you don't see the value of your individuality .. or alternatively you see some ease in devaluing your individuality

Generally, I see theism (in the form of a particular tradition) as an artificial imposition on myself, and therefore, the above applies, and theistic practice according to that tradition does seem like a matter of gritting my teeth and persevering, attempting to annull whatever I currently deem my individuality.

life is full of impositions and generally the success of it is the pursuit of values balanced against maintaining an amiable balance




I'm not sure how this ties in here?[/QUOTE]
association/comprehension of relationship/theory -> application -> goal

any mistakes made at one level carry through to the next

hence messed up theory = painful messed up application = thwarted goal

 

[wynn]

what to speak of discerning it, they participate in it

How?? They are outsiders, they cannot participate in it.

bingo

??

Only inasmuch as sitting on your brains is difficult

Oh. Heaven help you should I grow some elbows.

spiritual life is hard but material life is impossible

So what happened to "Just chant Hare Krishna and be happy"??

Is something like this

your new idea of spirituality?

then you don't see the value of your individuality .. or alternatively you see some ease in devaluing your individuality

Yes, ever since I can remember, I was expected to be someone else, and punished when I wasn't.

life is full of impositions and generally the success of it is the pursuit of values balanced against maintaining an amiable balance

Is this what you intended to say, or is there a typo?

association/comprehension of relationship/theory -> application -> goal

any mistakes made at one level carry through to the next

hence messed up theory = painful messed up application = thwarted goal

That is very easy to say.